Notch got sued...

[Jagos]

So here's the skinny:

Notch got sued for his game (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37478/Mojang_Really_Silly_Bethesda_Scrolls_Case_Heads_To _Court.php) possibly confusing people with Elder Scrolls. The name of his game is "Scrolls" for a card game.

Notch challenged Bethesda to a Quake game. The lawyers decided that Quake is for wimps. And they want to bully Notch into abandoning the word "Scrolls" for a game.

And Bethesda has not heard about Tim Langdell, (http://boingboing.net/2011/06/17/trademark-troll-tim.html) who obviously tried unsuccessfully to trademark the word "edge".

So now, Bethesda stands to lose good will with the community, the lawyers have gotten overzealous in IP issues and the fact remains that no matter how Bethesda wins, they lose customers. Can anyone else say "Dumb decisions?"

[Bard The 5th LW]

I'm a bit less inclined to get Skyrim now.

[rpgdemon]

I'm a bit less inclined to get Skyrim now.

I'm a bit more inclined to get Skyrim used now.

[Magus]

Didn't we already have this topic? In fact I think Jagos was the creator of it...must have deja vu, I dunno...

EDIT: Oh, I see, he's actually getting sued now instead of just getting cease and desist letters.

Yeah this is never going to happen for them. You can't copyright one word without proving that there are massive similarities between the games and there are not. They play totally differently.

[Jagos]

It's not copyright, it's a trademark issue.

[rpgdemon]

You can't trademark a single word, and you can't copyright words at all. When you do have a trademark, it applies to a specific something, and not all usages of the word, though if Bethesda did have the trademark on Scrolls, it would probably be applicable here, as usage of "Scrolls" in videogames. But again, can't trademark a single term. I actually looked into trademark laws awhile ago because of a design that I had created that I'd gotten printed onto tees to sell, just in case.

[Seil]

http://penny-arcade.smugmug.com/photos/i-3tjGvxt/0/L/i-3tjGvxt-XL.jpg

[Magus]

Trademark, copyright, big diff.

[Aerozord]

You can't trademark a single word, and you can't copyright words at all. When you do have a trademark, it applies to a specific something, and not all usages of the word, though if Bethesda did have the trademark on Scrolls, it would probably be applicable here, as usage of "Scrolls" in videogames. But again, can't trademark a single term. I actually looked into trademark laws awhile ago because of a design that I had created that I'd gotten printed onto tees to sell, just in case.

kinda, you can if its associated enough with your product to the point there is a reasonable chance they would confuse the two. Trademarks exist for that reason.

Now they still dont have a case. No one associates "scrolls" with the elder scrolls. Hell few people associate "the elder scrolls" with the elder scrolls series.

edit: this is hard to prove at any time. Legal battles for this are normally less about your actual claim and more about deliberate attempt to confuse customers. No one is going to look at these two games and think that

[McTahr]

e. Legal battles for this are normally less about your actual claim and more about deliberate attempt to confuse customers. No one familiar with games is going to look at these two games and think that

Just saying. It's an important stipulation when you're considering courts of old people.

E: Which is to say even though it shouldn't, it might!

[Fifthfiend]

93 year old judge: "WELL ONE'S A SCROLL AND ONE'S A SCROLL AND YOU PUSH THE BEEP-BOOPER TO MAKE THE FIDDLESTICK GO RATTLE-RATTLE LOOKS THE SAME TO ME"

[Amake]

Hell few people associate "the elder scrolls" with the elder scrolls series.
Just what I was thinking. Are there still people alive who played the original or second Elder Scrolls? I have never met anyone who did.

Also, Bethesda? Taintbags. Even if the "The Elder Scrolls" part of the title of your franchiese had any significance, and even if you could make a case that the word "Scrolls" by itself is harmful to your business if used by unauthorized personnel, you've got a horde of expensive lawyers in fine shoes stomping on a tiny indie developer that's likely to be crippled by any court costs whatsoever. That's not good business unless you're North Korea, so you're also immensely stupid taintbags.

And it's a pretty ridiculous case to make. It's as if the Tolkien estate went around and sued everything with the word "Rings" in its name. Onion rings, Simak's Ring Around the Sun, and especially a straight-up parody like Bored of the Rings can't possibly be a milder brand name infringement. Maybe if they change it to The Younger Scrolls they'll be protected by parody laws?

[Red Fighter 1073]

Hasn't both Notch and Bethesda chalked this up to being a case of "lawyers being lawyers"? If that's the case and Bethesda really doesn't care that much about the legal situation, then why not just tell their lawyers to back and off and drop the lawsuit to avoid any PR backlash?

[Jagos]

Because lawyers are always assholes who dick around until they stink up the joint, taking their clients into the anals of hell with them.

[Marc v4.0]

Just saying. It's an important stipulation when you're considering courts of old people.

E: Which is to say even though it shouldn't, it might!

Grandma is gonna get real confused when she goes to buy the latest hit, Skyrim, for little junior snot-nose and all she sees are miles of completely digital copies of a game called Scrolls The Elder Scrolls: V

^

[Krylo]

Because lawyers are always assholes who dick around until they stink up the joint, taking their clients into the anals of hell with them.

I think you mean annals.

You mean annals right?

Please say you mean annals.

[Jagos]

...

>_>;

<_<;

^_^;

[Aerozord]

Just saying. It's an important stipulation when you're considering courts of old people.

E: Which is to say even though it shouldn't, it might!

you misconstrue, I dont mean the judge has to be able to, I mean the consumer. Judges often rule on matters beyond their knowledge base, thats why they bring in experts to give their analysis. What matters is if the person buying the game would be confused.


Also, Bethesda? Taintbags. Even if the "The Elder Scrolls" part of the title of your franchiese had any significance, and even if you could make a case that the word "Scrolls" by itself is harmful to your business if used by unauthorized personnel, you've got a horde of expensive lawyers in fine shoes stomping on a tiny indie developer that's likely to be crippled by any court costs whatsoever.

tiny =/= poor. Minecraft has given notch's company tens of millions of dollars. Not to mention all the good will he's earned. I bet there are people in this very thread that would buy extra copies of minecraft just to give him more money to throw at this.

If court costs run high enough to "cripple" him, then Bethesda will be hurting bad too

[Amake]

Well, that's all right then!

[Marc v4.0]

you misconstrue, I dont mean the judge has to be able to, I mean the consumer. Judges often rule on matters beyond their knowledge base, thats why they bring in experts to give their analysis. What matters is if the person buying the game would be confused.



tiny =/= poor. Minecraft has given notch's company tens of millions of dollars. Not to mention all the good will he's earned. I bet there are people in this very thread that would buy extra copies of minecraft just to give him more money to throw at this.

If court costs run high enough to "cripple" him, then Bethesda will be hurting bad too

The point was Bethesda are taintbags because they are picking on a much smaller Indie company for absolutly no real reason at all.

Way to miss it

[Spooniest]

The whole thing seems patently ridiculous to me. Why not focus on making good games, instead of going around suing people who are just trying to make good games themselves?

Their actions have an effect on the attitudes and hence, buying decisions, of the gaming public. Don't they get that we're paying attention to what they're doing? They're not fooling anyone.

[Aerozord]

The point was Bethesda are taintbags because they are picking on a much smaller Indie company for absolutly no real reason at all.

Way to miss it

because thats not true, bethesda (to my knowledge they aren't part of a larger company) is about as indie and (financially) as large as Mojang.

The whole thing seems patently ridiculous to me. Why not focus on making good games, instead of going around suing people who are just trying to make good games themselves?

the people that make the games aren't the guys doing the suing. Now thats just the initial lawsuit and that this doesn't take away from the game making. Though I do not see why Bethesda aren't just saying "stop pursuing this". I'm guessing its more disinterest. Perhaps even what you said. "We dont care what you lawyers do, just leave us alone so we can keep making games." Skyrim is nearing launch, the actual company has more pressing matters then reigning in their overzealous lawyers

[Jagos]

Skyrim is nearing launch, the actual company has more pressing matters then reigning in their overzealous lawyers

Unless they believe bad publicity is still better than no publicity at all...

[Melfice]

Actually, Bethesda Softworks is owned by Zenimax. (Zenimax owns id Software as well!)
So, there really is a bigger company behind Bethesda.

[Aerozord]

I stand corrected, still saying a multimillionaire is being bullied because they are small seems abit odd

[Aldurin]

Fuck you Bethesda, I'm going to wait until Skyrim is on a huge sale before I buy it!

That will show you!

[Melfice]

I'm still buying Skyrim on day one.
Mostly because if I cancel my pre-order, I'm no longer eligible for a draw at the webshop, but still!

It's what Notch would want. (No, seriously. Last I heard, the guy is still getting Skyrim as well, so...)

[phil_]

Their actions have an effect on the attitudes and hence, buying decisions, of the gaming public. Don't they get that we're paying attention to what they're doing?lol no (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/11/11/call-of-duty-black-ops-day-one-sales/)

[Spooniest]

Hahahahahahaha! Point taken

[Magus]

Also this is all kind of pointless because end of the day Notch could just change the name to "Somethin something of the Scrolls" or "Scrolls of the Something Something" or "The Something Scrolls of the Something" and that would be so differentiated nobody is going to be able to tell a similarity. So basically Bethesda spends a bunch of money on a truly pointless exercise 'cause at the end of the day the title is going to have the word scrolls in it regardless.

Suggestions:

"The Magic Scrolls of the Elders"
"The Scrolls of Mirror Wind"
"The Scrolls of SwordDrop"
"The Ancestral Scrolls"
"Scrolls! Scrolls! Scrolls! Scrolls! Scrolls! Scrolls! Scrolls!"
"The Game Formerly Known As Scrolls"
"TheNot Elder Scrolls"
"Scrolls-a-Million"
"The Imperial Scrolls of Honor"

[Shyria Dracnoir]

Sllorcs

[POS Industries]

loliscrollu

[Kim]

"Scrolls Before Hoes"

[Marc v4.0]

Yeeeeeeessssss

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Somebody, send these ideas to Notch, right now!

[Aerozord]

Sacred
Consecrated
Rolls
Of
Long
Letters
Scripture

[Bard The 5th LW]

It should be noted that Elder Scrolls does not feature Scrolls that prominently

[Kerensky287]

Geez, Notch, just call it The Younger Scrolls and be done with it.

[Spooniest]

How about "SKEANS"

[Aerozord]

Joking aside sure he wont change the name on principle. You dont get an exclusive rights on every individual word in your title. Thats just stupid.

On the upside it is free press. I'd never even know of Scrolls if not for this

[Marc v4.0]

It should be noted that Elder Scrolls does not feature Scrolls that prominently

They do in the lore. The Elder Scrolls are some pretty important documents

[Osterbaum]

I always wondered why they even use scrolls in the Elder Scrolls universe; they seem to be quite able to print books aswell. The Elder Books!

[Marc v4.0]

The same reason we still use printed books?

I assume it is the difference between having to jot down a short order vs. a novel or history text. Why not use a scroll when sending a shopping list or a note or field commands?

Anyway, the Elder Scrolls are old things (That isn't why they are called Elder Scrolls though) so I doubt books as they are existed. And there isn't anything to really -read- on them, for most people. You have to be sensitive to even start reading them, and they damage your sight the more you read and understand them.

[Osterbaum]

Logic? Pffft. Take that shit elsewhere!

[Magus]

So apparently Notch offered to 1. sign over rights to the trademark "Scrolls" to Bethesda so they wouldn't have to worry about using the word Scrolls in their own titles in the future which he thought was maybe the real reason they were suing him and 2. change the name to "Scrolls: Something Or Other" before this actually went to court and Bethesda refused, so...
(http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/113450-Mojang-Offered-Up-Scrolls-Trademark-Bethsoft-Said-No)
I posit that Bethesda is now suing them over creating a game, a process upon which they clearly hold the patent!

[Aerozord]

yea I mean, what more do you want.

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

I read this, kotaku's and a few other articles about this during class today. Because Bethesda is being pretty quiet bout all this we're really only getting one side of the story, for the most part.

While I like Notch and all when one looks at the finer details of this fiasco it does kinda raise an eyebrow. Magus' link is nice and all, but it kinda glosses over Mojang's side of the issue other than 'they gettin sued 'cause trademark they wanted is broad. yep.'

I like how Kotaku (http://kotaku.com/5846111/mojang-v-bethesda-or-i-hate-it-when-mommy-and-daddy-fight) went into greater detail about Mojang's application in regards to the use and ownership of the world Scrolls:
Entertainment services in the form of electronic, computer and video games provided by means of the Internet and other remote communications device; internet games (non downloadable); organising of games; games (not downloadable) played via a global computer network; education and entertainment services in the form of cinematographic, televisual, digital and motion picture films, radio and television programs and shows; preparation, editing and production of cinematographic, televisual, digital and motion picture films, radio and television programs; entertainment services in the form of electronic, computer and video games provided by means of the Internet, mobile telephone and other remote communications device...Computer games; video games; computer software; computer and video games software; computer software downloaded or downloadable; computer software publications downloaded; interactive entertainment software; data recorded electronically from the Internet; data recorded in machine readable form from the Internet; discs, tapes, cartridges, CD-ROMs and other magnetic, electronic or optical media, all bearing computer games software or video games; electronic amusement apparatus for use with television receivers; electronic games apparatus; home video game machines.

This covers pretty much everything under the sun on top of the practice in itself being incredibly shifty and damn effective if wielded properly. While Notch & crew probably wouldn't use that to their advantage..but I can see where and how Bethesda would get raised hackles over it. Especially given how damn close the respective games are being released and one of 'em has a decade (give or take) of buildup history. One stands to lose more than the other over a potential risk of injunction.

[Magus]

Facts aside which are all well and good, the writing in that article made me remember why I hate reading Kotaku with the unbridled heat of a thousand suns.

EDIT: Also confused how since Notch offered to drop that trademark application before the suit was ever filed why it is of any concern now, since it therefore appears not to be the reason they are suing?

ANOTHER EDIT: Like here is the same story I linked before from Kotaku, posted chronologically after their other article.

Why this new article does not go on for paragraph after paragraph insinuating terrible or insulting things about Bethesda like the other article did about Notch I dunno. It's like Kotaku is biased or something...

Top Stories

Full size
elder vs. Scrolls
By Russ Pitts Oct 3, 2011 3:00 PM
136,051 303
Mojang v. Bethesda, or: I Hate it When Mommy and Daddy Fight [UPDATE]

Since I just spent the weekend playing Minecraft, my thoughts have unavoidably turned to the ongoing dispute between Mojang (makers of Minecraft) and Zenimax Media (parent company of Bethesda, makers of Oblivion and Skyrim among many other games) over the trademark on the word "Scrolls."

For those not keeping track, the dispute began when Mojang applied for a range of trademarks for their new game Scrolls and Zenimax cried foul, citing their ownership of the trademark "Elder Scrolls." Notch, the anything if not vocal leader of Mojang, posted on his Twitter feed that the dispute was merely "lawyers being lawyers," and later proposed the two companies should sort out their difficulties over a game of Quake 3. Zenimax was apparently not amused. Last week the company served Mojang with court papers, which Notch almost immediately made publicly available via Twitter before he'd even had time to read the papers, or so he claims, but not before he took the time to research a 1992 court case against Zenimax CEO Robert Altman and posted the link to an article about the case (which Altman won. Editor's note: Altman also settled on some of the charges; details here.) to his Twitter followers. According to the Washington Post, Notch later deleted the Tweet and apologized.

Full size

So, what to make of all of this? On the surface it looks like a mountain made out of a molehill, or the kind of dispute one would expect a company less reputable or successful than Zenimax/Bethesda to get themselves into. One has to assume that Mojang's relative inexperience in business matters (and Notch's inability to keep his mouth shut about anything at all) are at least partly responsible for the brash and sometimes tasteless remarks the company has been making in the press and on Twitter, but it's entirely possible Mojang knows they have no case and are simply trying to do as much PR damage to Zenimax as they can before they have to admit they applied for a trademark that will never stand against a serious complaint. They may even be thinking that if they embarrass Bethesda enough, the company will relent. After all, this would not be the first time we've seen someone take their grievances against a larger company to the court of public opinion (WINK).

Zenimax, for their part, has been nearly silent on the dispute. The company sent Mojang a Cease and Desist, which is the legal equivalent of a "WTF?" email, which Mojang ignored. Zeni then filed to bring the case to court in Sweden, where Mojang is based. The two companies will now be assembling their cases and will, at some later date, face each other before a judge. Or whatever happens in Sweden.

If one were to attempt to judge based solely on Twitter and the blogs, Zenimax would appear to be the bad guy here. Notch, perhaps attempting to bolster that perception, has put on his hurt face, claiming Zeni is "picking on the little guy." But after looking at Mojang's "Scrolls" patent application, I'm not so sure the case is as black and white as many would seem to believe. Specifically this part, referring to Mojang's claim of trademark on the use of "scrolls" for "radio and television programs and shows":

The application covers:

Entertainment services in the form of electronic, computer and video games provided by means of the Internet and other remote communications device; internet games (non downloadable); organising of games; games (not downloadable) played via a global computer network; education and entertainment services in the form of cinematographic, televisual, digital and motion picture films, radio and television programs and shows; preparation, editing and production of cinematographic, televisual, digital and motion picture films, radio and television programs; entertainment services in the form of electronic, computer and video games provided by means of the Internet, mobile telephone and other remote communications device.

In other words, Mojang intends to own the word "scrolls" in pretty much every form of visual entertainment media, not just in videogames. This means that, if the trademark is upheld, the company could rightly take action against anyone else using the word "scrolls" in any form of media whatsoever. Now, that would only be a problem if you were a successful media company planning to use the word "scrolls" in some form of entrainment media … Oh wait … that's right. If you're Zenimax, this trademark fucks you. Hard.

The section applying for trademarks on the use of the word "scrolls" in videogames is similarly broad (and potentially harmful to Zeni), covering:

Computer games; video games; computer software; computer and video games software; computer software downloaded or downloadable; computer software publications downloaded; interactive entertainment software; data recorded electronically from the Internet; data recorded in machine readable form from the Internet; discs, tapes, cartridges, CD-ROMs and other magnetic, electronic or optical media, all bearing computer games software or video games; electronic amusement apparatus for use with television receivers; electronic games apparatus; home video game machines.

Here, too, the trademark application covers everything. Meaning that anyone making any kind of game that contains the word "scrolls" could be the target of legal action by Mojang. Including companies who've been using the word "scrolls" in their games for years. Yes, even Zenimax/Bethesda. And if you're Zenimax/Bethesda, as soon as you read that your balls start to creep into your throat.

Let's assume for a moment that Mojang knows that their trademark would give them leverage over Zenimax, and that they might actually be planning to take action by claiming trademark violation the next time Zenimax publishes a game containing the word "scrolls" in the title. FYI, that would be this Holiday season, when The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim hits store shelves and is expected to sell millions of copies. If the trademark is valid, Mojang would be able to claim infringement and potentially take Zenimax to court. They might not win, considering Zeni's ownership of the trademark preceded Mojang's, but Mojang could force Zenimax to settle or face an injunction which would keep all of those millions of copies of Skyrim off of store shelves and out of the hands of gamers, depriving Zeni of many, many millions of dollars in revenue. Seem unlikely? Think again. Companies do this all the time.

This begs the question of whether or not Mojang would ever do such a thing. "Surely the cute and fluffy, fan-friendly designers of the cult-hit Minecraft would never play such a down-and-dirty trick," you might say, and I, for one, would love to believe that to be true. But if you're Zenimax, and you're sitting on a multi-million dollar videogame franchise with the word "scrolls" in its title, you can't take that chance.

Mojang v. Bethesda, or: I Hate it When Mommy and Daddy Fight [UPDATE]

Besides, if Mojang were as naive and innocent as Notch claims, why the far-reaching trademark application? If one were being generous, one could assume that Mojang is simply attempting to cover all potential bases, which, for a game as potentially all over the map as Scrolls could make sense. But if we're drawing comparisons to the case of Tim "Edge" Langdell (and I am), it pays to remember that Langdell was the one who applied for broad and far-reaching trademarks on the use of a single word, who attempted to sue EA over Mirror's Edge and Future Publishing over Edge Magazine and many, many other companies large and small, and who, ultimately, was pilloried for obfuscation and fraud.


Mojang's "scrolls" application is similarly scattershot, attempting to cover TV shows, radio programs, movies, education materials, clothing of all kinds, videogame consoles, toys, playing cards, puzzles, stand-alone game cabinets in addition to the videogame. The application encompasses four separate trademarks over the course of its weighty 300 words. Zenimax's "Elder Scrolls" patent application, by contrast, is a single sentence: "Pre-recorded CD's and DVD's featuring fantasy games."

The strangest part of all of this is the "radio and television programs and shows" section of the Mojang application, which seems to have come out of nowhere. Notch has spoken of Mojang's plans for Scrolls to be an ambitious game, but if they have any plans for TV shows or movies, they've so far kept those under wraps. Interestingly, Zenimax previously owned the trademark on the use of "Elder Scrolls" in feature films, but abandoned it in 2009. It could be that Zeni plans to re-up that trademark and go for another try at an Elder Scrolls movie. Or they could just be attempting to pro-actively forestall any claims against their extremely successful franchise, which, frankly, just makes good business sense. Once you lose a trademark, it's gone. Zenimax would be in a world of hurt if they suddenly lost the rights to the game franchise they've been building for decades.

As a side note, the Mojang patent application also claims to cover T-shirts and other apparel ("Articles of clothing; footwear and headgear; t-shirts; shirts; trousers; sweatshirts; jackets; knitwear; hats; caps; neckwear; shoes; socks; garments for women; garments for men; garments for children; apparel parts and fittings for all the aforesaid") seemingly violating the trademark of one Regina Grogan, who applied for the "scrolls" T-shirt trademark (specifically for T-shirts with the last "S" in "scrolls" turned backward) in May of 2010. No word yet on whether or not Ms. Grogan plans to file suit.

UPDATE from Kotaku: Notch has responded to this story, saying that Bethesda declined his company's offer to add a sub-title to their game and give up the trademark.

Top Stories

Full size
elder vs. Scrolls
By Kirk Hamilton Oct 3, 2011 5:20 PM
54,714 511
Notch Offered to Give Up "Scrolls" Trademark, Bethesda Sued Anyway

Markus "Notch" Persson, the maker of Minecraft, says his company Mojang volunteered both to drop the trademark request for the title of their upcoming game "Scrolls" and to add a subtitle in order to to avoid being sued by Skyrim juggernaut Bethesda, but that Bethesda refused. He shared this fact in response to a piece on Kotaku today that analyzed the ongoing battle between the gaming favorites.

From Persson's blog:

I feel the need to clarify a couple of things:

We realized we should apply for the trademark "Minecraft" to protect our brand. When doing so, we also sent in an application for "Scrolls". When Bethesda contacted us, we offered both to change the name to "Scrolls: [some subtitle]" and to give up the trademark.

They refused on both counts.

Whatever reason they have for suing us, it's not a fear of us having a trademark on the word "Scrolls", as we've offered to give that up.

Kotaku compiled a collection of the legal documents from the case (though they are in Swedish). Find them here.

Just a wee bit unbalanced in their use of insinuations, assumptions, and conjectures in the two articles I think...

I mean if we're drawing comparisons to the yellow journalism of William Randolph Hearst (and I am) wherein various unfounded statements are put forward about the character of various entities in order to slant the reader's opinion for or against said entities, it seems important to point out that Kotaku's various statements could easily be mistaken for yellow journalism, especially in their use of such phrases as "it's possible", "they may", "perhaps", "if we're drawing comparison" and "this begs the question" followed by unfounded remarks about the entity's character.

This begs the question: is Russ Pitts without journalistic integrity, and possibly attempting to go against prevailing opinion to cheaply cash-in on page hits with his edgy, anti-Notch, pro-Bethesda stance? You decide (and by decide I mean keep in mind Russ Pitts' inability to keep his mouth shut about anything at all and his enjoyment of making brash and possibly tasteless remarks about Mojang in order to perhaps do as much PR damage to it as possible with possible nefarious intent).

[Pip Boy]

(and by decide I mean keep in mind Russ Pitts' inability to keep his mouth shut and his enjoyment of making brash and tasteless remarks about Mojang in a public forum).

I see what you did there.

[Magus]

Oh, and Russ Pitts' interpretation of the legal ramifications of Notch having a trademark on Scrolls to be that they could put an injunction against Bethesda for releasing a game called Elder Scrolls is actually completely wrong and completely misunderstands how trademarks work, since it uses the case of Rob Langdell as its evidence, despite Rob Langdell ultimately failing horribly at keeping people from using Edge in titles, and of course compares Notch to Rob Langdell in a news article because non-journalists in various non-news comments around the internet compared Bethesda to Rob Langdell. Because parroting unfounded comparisons in casual conversation but like reversing them in an actual supposedly professional editorial? Very clever.

Because as we know Notch psychically forced Bethesda to sue him so he could destroy them in an online PR war. Tricky bastard! That's just like how Rob Langdell sued other people, except like if Rob Langdell got sued as opposed to suing other people...I guess?

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

To be fair, you can't deny that Notch has been treating the whole thing with a pretty cavalier attitude until shit hit the fan. There comes a point where some professionalism is required instead of lambasting via twitter and immediately regretting it.

Yes I'll agree that Russ Pitts article is bombastic and undoubtedly cashing in on the situation. Despite that his article is pretty much the only one that I came upon that shows Mojang's application in full in regards to Scrolls. Comparisons aside, aren't all reporters attempting to gain attention regardless of bias or spin? In any case it isn't hard to objectively skim through the chaff to the meat 'n taters.

I like Bethesda and I like Notch and the whole hullaboo makes for interesting speculation. When it comes down to it one is being stubborn and the other is acting like a clown. Or both are very well being both. Think we can both agree that trademark and copyright law is fuckin annoying as fuck with all the obfuscation and such, though.

[Jagos]

If anyone knows how out of whack the patent and trademark laws were in the US, they would understand that Notch isn't really the bad guy here...

[Marc v4.0]

To be fair, you can't deny that Notch has been treating the whole thing with a pretty cavalier attitude until shit hit the fan. There comes a point where some professionalism is required instead of lambasting via twitter and immediately regretting it.

Lawers are hired to be professional back and forth with each other so normal people don't have to pretend.

Yeah, Kotaku took a pretty big steaming shit all over Notch for some reason, even though bethesda is the one sueing him for...No other given reason then they want to?

[Magus]

To be fair, you can't deny that Notch has been treating the whole thing with a pretty cavalier attitude until shit hit the fan. There comes a point where some professionalism is required instead of lambasting via twitter and immediately regretting it.

Yes I'll agree that Russ Pitts article is bombastic and undoubtedly cashing in on the situation. Despite that his article is pretty much the only one that I came upon that shows Mojang's application in full in regards to Scrolls. Comparisons aside, aren't all reporters attempting to gain attention regardless of bias or spin? In any case it isn't hard to objectively skim through the chaff to the meat 'n taters.


It's almost like Notch is just a dude trying to make some videogames and run a small company that exists probably solely for the sake of tax laws regarding how you sell your materials and stuff, and Zenimax Media is a giant media conglomerate that happens to own Bethesda and different levels of professionalism might exist for those two entities. Perhaps Russ Pitts shouldn't comment on people making brash or tasteless remarks while, you know, doing that himself.

Of course, I could point out that in making brash and tasteless remarks about Bethesda that Notch did not hurt his case in the least and oddly enough had the humility to take some of the remarks down after thinking about them (something with Russ Pitts has not done with his own brash and tasteless remarks).

And no not all reporters are out to gain attention, or at least not by posting opinion columns and editorials with baseless accusations about Notch's motives, one of which is apparently to get Zenimax Media to sue him so he can destroy them in a PR war, and another to file broad trademarks so in the future he can sue them in ridiculous trademark suits ala Rob Langdell, which of course just means Zenimax Media is making a preemptive strike in the War on Frivolous Lawsuits by launching their own frivolous lawsuits before Notch can.

Is Kotaku a hive of scum and villainy? Does Russ Pitts like eating babies? You decide!

(Think I'm getting this opinion column thing down pat)

[Sifright]

Is Kotaku a hive of scum and villainy? Does Russ Pitts like eating babies? You decide!



OH dear lord he eats babies!? What a disgusting vile piece of humanity!

[Melfice]

BOYCOTT KOTAKU!
Sue them for crimes against humanity!

[Magus]

BOYCOTT KOTAKU!
Sue them for crimes against humanity!

I already try to avoid all Gawker Media sites since this happened (http://gizmodo.com/5833787/my-brief-okcupid-affair-with-a-world-champion-magic-the-gathering-player). (Go ahead and click, the 9 bazillion page views garnered by posting things that piss people off have already been tallied)

[Aerozord]

the article did remind me, Bethesda aren't the ones actually suing him. Its their parent company that would own the rights.

Really I think Notch's reaction makes sense considering the guy went from no-name programmer to one of the richest and most well known game developers in the world in a span of what, two years? He isn't acting like one, he's acting like any of us would if we were being sued by a major developer. Notch is still that guy he was before minecraft, just a gamer with an interest in making some of his own.

[Melfice]

And despite having picked up some "bad" habits (flying on a friend's private jet, for one), it doesn't look like he'll change much.

Also, y'gotta remember that it's probably Mojang's lawyers who urged Notch to get Minecraft and Scrolls trademarked.
And it's probably also those same lawyers who filed the trademark request.

[Doc ock rokc]

And despite having picked up some "bad" habits (flying on a friend's private jet, for one), it doesn't look like he'll change much.

Also, y'gotta remember that it's probably Mojang's lawyers who urged Notch to get Minecraft and Scrolls trademarked.
And it's probably also those same lawyers who filed the trademark request.

Yes he eventually trademarked the names because of copy "minecrafts" causing him trouble.

[Fifthfiend]

To be fair, you can't deny that Notch has been treating the whole thing with a pretty cavalier attitude until shit hit the fan. There comes a point where some professionalism is required instead of lambasting via twitter and immediately regretting it.

IDK why anyone would have to "admit" that someone treated a stupid thing stupidly until it turned out that other, stupid people were intent on taking the stupid thing seriously.

I like how Kotaku (http://kotaku.com/5846111/mojang-v-bethesda-or-i-hate-it-when-mommy-and-daddy-fight) went into greater detail about Mojang's application in regards to the use and ownership of the world Scrolls

Is there any indication that this trademark filing is overbroad compared with such filings by others in the same industry, or that whichever relevant regulatory body couldn't selectively approve the submission? Also: Is there anything to substantiatie the author's claim that Bethesda / Zenimax are filing suit as some kind of defense against Notch's trademark claim, rather than attempting to enforce their own trademark claims as has previously seemed to be the case?

[Magus]

The USPTO argument started from an assumption that Notch started with the title The Elder Scrolls and then deleted The Elder to get simply "Scrolls". Because when using generic words it means you go with a more complicated title first and remove words to get to the generic word, I guess?

Basically, intent is important to this as well as the actual possibility of confusion. This is why there is a judge who interprets the letter of the laws.

Also I just have to say that Russ Pitts had better quit writing articles because he is becoming increasingly unable to form logical arguments. (http://kotaku.com/5847295/mojang-v-bethesda-part-2-the-attorneys-and-notch--pete-weigh-in) Here are some excerpts from this extraordinary article:

"This is a business matter based on how trademark law works and it will continue to be dealt with by lawyers who understand it, not by me or our developers," Said Pete Hines, VP at Bethesda, highlighting exactly what makes this case so complex.

For you see, Zenimax Media has no choice but to pay these lawyers to litigate in this case. It's out of their hands. The lawyers have full control of the company and will do this even if they aren't paid, because it's the principle of the thing.

In other words, a trademark itself is part of the company's product, not just a name. For two products to simultaneously exist with the same or similar names could be potentially devastating, literally meaning the difference between success and failure for the company who holds the trademark that is being infringed. It's also a hazard for you as a consumer. If you go to the videogame store to buy the latest Elder Scrolls game, for example, and you end up with something else because the titles were too similar for you to tell the difference, you're going to feel screwed. [This is just like when the direct-to-DVD film Snakes on a Train came out at Wal-Mart at the same time as the DVD release of Snakes on a Plane and I of course bought Snakes on a Train because I am a fucking idiot with no brain].

Think about trademarks in terms of your own personal identity. The closest analogy to trademark infringement in our daily lives would be if someone, somewhere, started using your identity to apply for credit cards, ran up a huge bill in your name and then bailed. Your credit rating would suffer and you may have to spend your own money and time to correct the problem. You might even face charges for something you didn't do. For companies, their trademarks are part of their identities, and a potential trademark infringement doesn't have to be something with exactly the same name. If it's close enough, it's a problem. Even if it's only similar by one word. Say, for example, the word "Scrolls."


False analogy? Nah, this is clearly very exactly the same as credit card fraud or identity theft.


According to the lawyers, this case is not about whether or not Zenimax wants to allow Mojang to use the word or some derivation of it, and may not be about Mojang at all. Zenimax's response to this potential trademark infringement will have far-reaching consequences beyond just their dealings with Mojang, and could impact how future infringements are dealt with by the courts. If Zenimax doesn't fight now they may not be able to do so in the future, when someone may intentionally try to damage Zenimax's brand by releasing a game called, for example, Eldritch Scrolls X: Skyrim the Love Dragon. Or Morrowind from the Nether Regions, an Elder Rolls Game. Or...you get the picture.

That's some badass slippery slope there. I want to live in the world of Russ Pitts. I bet he thinks stepping on a butterfly in Zimbabwe causes the death of 6 million people in Kuala Limpur.


In other words, Zenimax literally has to fight Mojang in court over the title of the game "Scrolls" or they will be throwing away their decades-old "Elder Scrolls" trademark and unable to defend themselves in the future. According to Pete Hines, it's not a personal decision, or a situation that anyone at Bethesda and Zenimax really wants to be involved in, but from their point of view, they have no choice.

"Nobody here enjoys being forced into this," said Hines. "Hopefully it will all be resolved soon."

See? They don't WANT to sue Notch, they HAVE to. The lawyers at Zenimax who specialize in trademark litigation and make their money that way don't enjoy participating in said litigation, no matter how much money it makes them. They HAVE to obtain royalties off of a game made by Notch no matter what. It's the principal of the thing. Even if he were to change the name of the game to "Rolled Parchments" it's still up to them to pursue royalties for Bethesda because we know that Notch is really trying to confuse consumers. In fact Bethesda should even create an injunction against Notch releasing the game with any other title OTHER than Scrolls, because they deserve those royalties no matter what the ultimate title of the game is.

I can see why Russ Pitts is the former editor of the Escapist and has been looking for work for some time...glad to see Kotaku isn't afraid to give him money and post his editorials, as they are clearly well researched and well thought out.

[Aerozord]

well actually that isn't completely untrue. Under US law you do have to defend your trademark/copyright any time its being violated or you lose it forever. Its why you see companies often going after very minor cases.

This might be why they are pursuing it. Not to win, just to make sure they have the rights secured in case a legitimate matter occurs. In other words we might just be blowing this out of proportion. It goes to court, Notch wins, then at the end of the day nothing had changed

[Jagos]

... My head hurts after reading that...

well actually that isn't completely untrue. Under US law you do have to defend your trademark/copyright any time its being violated or you lose it forever. Its why you see companies often going after very minor cases.

No you don't... Twitter gets along just fine by licensing the use of their Twitterbird without suing the world.

[Aerozord]

... My head hurts after reading that...



No you don't... Twitter gets along just fine by licensing the use of their Twitterbird without suing the world.

yes you do, ask a civil attorney, like I did.

[Marc v4.0]

Our DM is glad Notch is getting sued because He shouldn't be so lazy and hand off the Laywer work to the Laywers like some sort of lazy asshole.

"Beheda"(As he insists it is called since he is incapable of pronouncing anything properly), on the other hand, is too busy and too important for anyone BUT the Laywers to handle this. They must not sully their hands fighting that dirty Notch fellow who made that shitty game (which he hasn't played or even looked at ever but it is still a piece of shit)

"He already offered to give up the name completely, they are suing him for nothing now"
"Well, yeah."

Then I gave up.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4549162/emot-psyduck.gif

[Magus]

They clearly want royalties off this game whether it ends up being called "Scrolls" or "Scrolls: Unleash the Magic" or "Rocklobsters". They are not going to quit until the shakedown for money off of Notch's IP is complete.

Like I can actually see a plausible outcome of this being (since the world sucks ass) that even if Notch ultimately decided to abandon this project completely despite the millions he has spent on it, a court would then like FORCE HIM TO RELEASE IT ANYWAY, and if he refused to do that FORCE HIM TO SIGN OVER ALL THE RIGHTS TO THE ENTIRE IP AND ALL THINGS CREATED FOR IT to Bethesda, just because. I'm sure the argument would be "since Bethesda owns the trademark to Scrolls and Notch has willfully abandoned said project, all rights revert to Bethesda, owner of the trademark on Scrolls."

I know it makes no sense but in the crazy world where this was even thought up and then people defended Zenimax media for doing it anything is possible.

EDIT:

What I really really really want to see now is Notch put in an application to call this game "Elder" so we can see the hilarious statement "Clearly just because you delete the word Scrolls from the name The Elder Scrolls does not mean you are not purposefully trying to confuse people into buying your similarly named product named Elder" from the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Proving that you cannot just trademark generic nouns but also generic adjectives!

[Jagos]

yes you do, ask a civil attorney, like I did.

Nope. Because I know that while they can enforce it, trademark law merely states they can do this where there is a large likelihood of confusion of "product".

Seeing as how neither Scrolls game will directly impede, this is more or less the lawyers milking Bethesda for what they're worth.

Also, NOTHING stops Bethesda from giving out a free license OR stopping this lawsuit when it's quite clear that there's no hint of confusion.

[Aerozord]

Nope. Because I know that while they can enforce it, trademark law merely states they can do this where there is a large likelihood of confusion of "product".

Seeing as how neither Scrolls game will directly impede, this is more or less the lawyers milking Bethesda for what they're worth.

Also, NOTHING stops Bethesda from giving out a free license OR stopping this lawsuit when it's quite clear that there's no hint of confusion.

first off, I never said there was a legit case. I said that it was possible they are doing this merely to enforce their trademark because they have to. I didn't say it was for a fact their intent but there really is nothing to gain from this lawsuit. The game hasn't been released, thus generated no revenue thus nothing for them to claim. It is reasonable to conclude they are doing this to avoid potential issues in the future, or the lawyers just need to look like they are actually needed

Secondly, are you really so arrogant as to think you understand copyright law better then a civil attorney with decades of experience in said law?

[Marc v4.0]

Secondly, are you really so arrogant as to think you understand copyright law better then a civil attorney with decades of experience in said law?

Asks the guy who is an apparent expert in everything~


I mean, I can't count the number of topics that have spiraled out into epic crusades, waged by people who know these things, to make you understand a topic you clearly know little about but assert that you are indeed correct. To see you call someone arrogant for thinking they know better then someone educated in the field...

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4549162/1280098266743.png

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

Well, can't say I'm not disappointed. Hoped this conversation went for a more interesting turn with which to partake in again. Cripes, as usual the conversation the direction heads into the inevitable degrade into who has the bigger braincock.

It's shit like this that makes me leave this forum for weeks at a time and ask myself why I keep coming back expecting something different.

Great, completely forgot what I was going to say. Maybe it'll come back in a few weeks.

[Jagos]

first off, I never said there was a legit case. I said that it was possible they are doing this merely to enforce their trademark because they have to. I didn't say it was for a fact their intent but there really is nothing to gain from this lawsuit. The game hasn't been released, thus generated no revenue thus nothing for them to claim. It is reasonable to conclude they are doing this to avoid potential issues in the future, or the lawyers just need to look like they are actually needed

Secondly, are you really so arrogant as to think you understand copyright law better then a civil attorney with decades of experience in said law?

No, all you said was " go talk to a civil attorney", which I've explained quite succinctly why I would not do it. Because I'm aware of the nominative uses of a trademark. I've also explained how other companies who have similar issues with trademarks can do a lot better without the nastygram of a letter or looking dumb, by not allowing lawyers to sue others with no restraints when they make money from the threats of a lawsuit.

Then you confuse trademark law with copyright law. And this isn't the only time that I've disagreed with you in regards to copyright law when you've gotten it wrong.

Finally, just because I'm not a civil attorney, a lawyer, a judge or anything else, it's rather insulting that I can't sit here and understand the laws professed in front of me, especially when copyright is being used and twisted mainly to bully smaller companies (like Notch's). So if you think this is arrogance, that I've educated myself on the fair use doctrine, research patent law and it's problems, look at copyright and its uses and abuses, then I don't know what to tell you.