The Morality of Flashing One's Parts

[A Zarkin' Frood]

Firtstly: Requesting Butts-tag

Secondly:
Discussing subjects of morality is something I rarely do because, well, everyone has an opinion or rather a lot of opinions. In a few key points most people agree. Like shiney, but even then the age old question, asshole or shitface pops up and no one ever agrees. We can discuss back and forth, formulate the best arguments, but it will never accomplish anything unless someone spent their life in complete denial that the subject of the question asked is even a thing. By the time one has reached the average age of an NPF forumite most, if not all, people already have their idea of what's right or wrong and changing that is not something that happens just like that. Unless you're really really really open minded to new ideas. Otherwise it's a process. But this thread is not about changing opinions, it's not like we can objectively say who's right, it's about sharing them. The only wrong answer is no answer!!!!!!!

Yesterday I had a conversation with someone and at some point the discussion shifted towards naked people, specifically: Naked children at the beach. While I didn't have a problem with that at all my friend seemed to find the idea of some parent letting their little one run around naked in public completely and utterly appaling. I asked "What's so wrong with that" and got "Everything". Now, I'd have loved to discuss that subject a little more in detail but I could see that my... "opponent" didn't want to talk about this kind of thing at all.

Instead I ask you! Nakedness! Complete freedom or indecency that must be abolished at all costs. Now, this question has some facets, man, you don't even know. Or you do, maybe you do. Naked people, men, women, girls and boys and infants with whichever parts. Do, according to you, not the law or some shit like that, different nudity rules apply to each of them and why do you think so? What about places like the beach, where people are pretty much naked anyway and what about other public places, like the subway or McDonald's?

Personally I think people should be allowed to impale, club and swallow bears with their genitals at all times without having to remove those annoying various articles of clothing first! If it weren't so damn cold I'd be writing this naked.

I chose this as the subject for the first (official) installment of "Stupid Talk! With Iggy!!" because everyone has been naked at some point. And most of you have probably seen someone naked even if it was just your aunt for ten dollars.

tl;dr: Just how cool is being naked? Or how not cool is it if you want to be like that...

[Osterbaum]

I'm naked right now.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

Awesome. Why did you choose to be naked? For reasons of functionality? Is it just part of your lifestyle pehaps? Easy access?

Also: Thanks to synk for adding the Butts tag

[Nique]

Life is a constant struggle between chaos and order, freedom and control, law and anarchy and the need to balance these two opposing energies.

It is moral to be naked if you are fighting against the tyranny of order to bring balance to the force, but it is immoral if you are naked as an agent of chaos in order to bring disorder to people's lives for disorders own sake.

Or in the case of children on the beach I think it's just lazy parents.

[The SSB Intern]

Or in the case of children on the beach I think it's just lazy parents.

Also known simply as "parents".

[Nique]

Then what do you call the adults that bring their children to the beach in tiny sailor outfits?

[The SSB Intern]

Pedophiles.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

Let me tell you the story of how I ended up naked before my entire class.

We were visiting that lake near the school out of season, so no one except us was there. There's a little island in the middle and right next to the bridge on the island there were some trees and bushes. The boys of the class, including me, thought it would be cool to hide there from the yucky girls. This was third grade after all, a time when you think the cooties are a bad thing. Anyway, we were five boys and about 15 girls. Probably a little more. And us boys would hang out in the bushes, hidden from the rest. At one point I thought, hell, if I'm here I might as well take a swim. Well, too bad I didn't have my swimming trunks with me. Not a problem, I thought. I'll just run into the water real quick naked, no one will see me. Yeah, right. I've visited that lake before, but never that spot, so I didn't know how ridiculously shallow the water was there. Yeah, the girls were playing volleyball at the time and they at a good view at the spot I was about to run in. Completely naked. As I noticed that I couldn't really swim here it was already too late. Me running to where I was produced enough noise for everyone to look right at where I was standing. Flashing my ten or so years old dick at all the girls in class.

I was really really embarrassed then, but now I can laugh about that whole story. Because I know that mine was probably the first dick a lot of those girls saw.

So yeah, that's about my biggest flasher moment to date.

Life is a constant struggle between chaos and order, freedom and control, law and anarchy and the need to balance these two opposing energies.

It is moral to be naked if you are fighting against the tyranny of order to bring balance to the force, but it is immoral if you are naked as an agent of chaos in order to bring disorder to people's lives for disorders own sake.

Or in the case of children on the beach I think it's just lazy parents.

Whatever is chaos and what is order? Which one is good, which one is bad? When can you say that they are in balance? A symmetry would imply that there is no such thing as chaos and it's all order anyway. If a balance is at all possible it means that chaos does not exist and you are only fighting yourself, which seems like a pretty useless struggle, so just lose your clothes and join the fun. We'll have some BBQ later at the beach.

[akaSM]

Pedophiles.

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/7759/kikodl.jpg

I don't see anything wrong with being naked, it's the attitude of the naked people that is wrong. I mean, someone going "am nekkid, look at meeeeeeeeeeeeee" just doesn't feel right, in any way.

[Nique]

Whatever is chaos and what is order? Which one is good, which one is bad? When can you say that they are in balance? A symmetry would imply that there is no such thing as chaos and it's all order anyway.

I realize this is a thread about 'butts and farts and that is basically all I can expect' but I can't figure out if you're asking fallacious questions for funsies or if you're trying to actually address the concept of balance and moderation in philosophy - either way your questions/ reasoning don't really make sense to me.

Basically I was just saying that sometimes it is bad to be naked and sometimes it isn't but what makes it good or bad is completely contextual - Like, naked during a business meeting? Bad. Naked during a business meeting at a nudist colony? I assume good!

Question: If you have a business meeting at a nudist colony, would you still wear, say, a tie and business socks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHOSEcmZvG8)/ shoes?

[Archbio]

I mean, someone going "am nekkid, look at meeeeeeeeeeeeee" just doesn't feel right, in any way.

If you got it, flaunt it.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

What's so wrong with being naked during a business meeting outside a nudist colony? Even if the fellas there are all outraged and demand the nude one to get dressed up, can you say it is bad? Sure, might be bad for the career of the guy, but that wouldn't be exactly what I mean by bad/wrong. But maybe I'm thinking too far out here.

And uh... unless it's obvious that I'm serious it's best to assume I'm not.

[Nique]

but that wouldn't be exactly what I mean by bad/wrong.

So under what definition of 'wrong' are we discussing morality then? It seems like being naked during a business meeting has pretty negative consequences for this increasingly hypothetical person and maybe his family, and it's probably pretty distracting for the other people in the meeting who are like 'damn I just want to get through my Monday why is Bill recreating last years Christmas party?!'

My equation for if something is bad good or neutral is pretty simple. If we're talking about morality in some larger intrinsic or spiritual sense maybe you could explain what that would be exactly?

And uh... unless it's obvious that I'm serious it's best to assume I'm not.

Cool! I hope it doesn't seem like I'm taking this too seriously either and I hope that paraphrasing star wars and linking Flight of the Conchords videos lends credence to this idea.

[Nique]

And I've noticed that there are a lot of threads lately where people want to ask about what's good and moral and stuff. What's up with the existentialism guys?

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Free time and lots of it. That's what.


Though really I agree there was basically nothing wrong with nudity. About the only reason I see for why people have a problem with it is because people link it to sex for some reason.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

Oh shit? I jumped on a bandwagon? Someone lock this thread right now!

E: The opening was nothing more but an attempt to at pseudo-depth for the shiggles to give people the illusion that I put way too much thought into this, not a serious attempt to start a pseudo-philosophical discussion about morals. Because it always ends with at least one crying and no one winning.

E2: I thought by this point we'd have lots of pictures of naked dudes.

[Nique]

Liz must be on vacation?

[A Zarkin' Frood]

I saw her earlier in the chat and mentioned that there is a thread in need of dudes making out, but she's gone now and my call was not answered. CJ doesn't seem to be here either. I'd do it myself but I don't have any pics like that or know where I can get good ones from.

[TDK]

I personally feel that any censorship is bullshit, and that extends to forcing people to wear clothing. I would gladly go naked any time it was comfortable (fucking winter), and would have no problem with anybody else doing the same.

[Krylo]

Are you a super model? Do people regularly ask you to take pictures of your chiseled abs, shapely buttocks, and beautiful skin? If yes, go ahead and be naked whenever. If no, then you are staying dressed to keep other people from being forced to look at your pale flabby nerd ass flapping about in the wind.

Same as you don't go around showing pictures of dismembered children to people on the street, or asking random people to come look at the huge dump you just took. It's unpleasant to see and people just want to get through their lives without having to think about it.

[Nique]

This is inevitably going to hit a wall about whether society should be the way it is about naked people or not and have body image issues and whatever.

Clothing is protective, mostly, and also stylish, so it's prudent to wear it almost all the time is most areas. But using it all the time made the western world feel weird and repelled and/or sexually frustrated around naked people so I guess it's a bit of a two-edged sword.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Liz must be on vacation?

Only reason this thread isn't flooded with nude dudes.

[Gregness]

Are you a super model? Do people regularly ask you to take pictures of your chiseled abs, shapely buttocks, and beautiful skin? If yes, go ahead and be naked whenever. If no, then you are staying dressed to keep other people from being forced to look at your pale flabby nerd ass flapping about in the wind.

Same as you don't go around showing pictures of dismembered children to people on the street, or asking random people to come look at the huge dump you just took. It's unpleasant to see and people just want to get through their lives without having to think about it.

So, only the most beautiful of us can be aesthetically pleasing? I don't buy it.

[Nique]

I can see more people being up for lightening up decency laws if we started regulating people's physical health/ appearance.

In fact, it should be a law that everyone needs to look like a supermodel.

[Archbio]

So, only the most beautiful of us can be aesthetically pleasing?

That's not even nearly as bad as what Krylo said.

He compared the nudity (meaning, their bodies) of people of non-"supermodel" looks to grisly crimes and feces. It's kind of ridiculously offensive?

[pochercoaster]

Much like wearing flip flops whilst walking around in the dirty streets of Toronto, being naked, even if the weather permitted it, would be highly unsanitary. Nevermind the creepiness factor- I just don't want all the mysterious debris on my naked flesh, thank you.

Naked kids on the beach? Eh, whatever. If I were a parent I would certainly cover up my child because they're going to have to get used to wearing clothes and also because it's protective, but I'm not offended by a naked child. It seems bizarre that someone would be offended by a naked child on the beach when they're clearly non threatening and not sexual.

You know, I don't want to show all facets of my identity to strangers, or co-workers, or my boss. That goes as much for my private opinions and thoughts as my body. It's not that I'm insecure, it's that it's unnecessary (and uncomfortable) and would add another layer of complication to an already complicated social hierarchy. Not to mention the increasesd threat of freaks whipping their junk out at you. Also there are situations where there is close body contact between strangers, such as on a crowded subway. I REALLY would not to be in that situation. Think of how unhygienic that would make our public spaces. Wanna take a seat where thousands of unclothed strangers sat before you?

[Krylo]

So, only the most beautiful of us can be aesthetically pleasing? I don't buy it.

That's not even nearly as bad as what Krylo said.

He compared the nudity (meaning, their bodies) of people of non-"supermodel" looks to grisly crimes and feces. It's kind of ridiculously offensive?

Actually, I wasn't being 100% serious, 'cause the tone of the thread wasn't. I wouldn't want to see super models walking around naked all the time, either, or anyone else really. It's just not attractive in general day to day life, mostly because, as Pochy said, it's pretty unsanitary and unsanitary things make me go bleh I don't even want to look at it. And clothes are fashionable besides.

I mean, to put it another way, I don't want to be sitting at a restaurant eating my burger and have somebody's dick slapping about on the way past my table for all kinds of reasons. And less logically, I've spent far too long in a society that doesn't let people be naked to be able to just shrug off nude people where there shouldn't be nude people, and as such it's distracting, regardless of how attractive/unattractive the nude person is.

It doesn't really matter if you're the most attractive person in the world, there are lots of times when I just don't want to see you naked for a multitude of reasons that range from pure aesthetics all the way up through sanitation issues. And, really, it doesn't matter if this is because of social conditioning or whatever craziness (it is). The question in the OP was on the morality, and perhaps ethics, of just walking around naked all the time.

And all that really matters so far as that goes is that a lot of people don't want to see you naked, so don't be naked around lots of people. It's basic social compassion to not deliberately do things to stand out and make other people uncomfortable.

If you want to talk about whether that socialization is good or bad or neutral or whatever, that's cool. I'd say neutral, for the most part, leaning toward bad in certain ways and, mostly, due to certain other more intensely negative sociological pressures that it supports. But the socialization is what it is, so unless you're doing some kind of nude protest marches or something in an attempt to normalize it, it just kind of makes you a jerk to be nude in public places.

I was going to put in a youtube of Drew Carey talking about why he wears a shirt in the summer in that post to make the tone more obviously not serious, but then I couldn't find it and did other things.

Edit: Really all I was trying to get through in the original post was that you should have consideration for how other people are going to feel when you do things, being naked included. If it makes other people unnecessarily uncomfortable to the supermax or whatever (as being nude in public places tends to do), you shouldn't do it.

[pochercoaster]

I think it comes down to the fact that in order for society to function individuals have to be somewhat self effacing, depending on the situation. Just like it's in bad taste to go around spouting your religious or political views to strangers, but as you get to know people better or interact with them in situations of differing formality it may be more appropriate to bring up more private things. Ultimately your partner is really the one who's going to actually have a reason to see you naked so it becomes acceptable at that level of intimacy.

Like one could idealize that one day as a society we may be able to walk around completely naked shouting everything we think about everyone all the time and have everyone be perfectly okay and openminded and accepting about it but that's crazy and will never happen, and it's probably not ideal in the first place.

Things like censoring paintings of naked people or equating the body with EVIL AND IMMORALITY AND DIRTINESS!!!! Is a different but related situation. However even if this attitude was completely eradicated and replaced with something more openminded, the reasoning behind being clothed still stands.

[Red Mage Black]

Right, this is what I wanted to say on the matter. I might sound serious, but I'm only trying to state facts/opinions, maybe obvious ones:

* I'd like to think that there are differences between people wanting to be naked as attention seekers and people doing it because that's how they're comfortable.

* Sometimes people do it out of the discomfort of how some clothing feels. This isn't to say they won't wear anything during the winter to keep their private parts from falling off due to frostbite, but during the Summer, they wear nothing.

* Some people only do it at home, which I find a little more comfortable. Nothing to do with aesthetics, but your home is your domain and whether you keep the shades open or closed I suppose depends on how open you are. Lucky if you're a guy and windows go no lower than your waist, but horrible when they're closer to the floor.

* I find it's only unsanitary in public places that aren't within the confines of a nudist colony. It has nothing to do with the nudist's hygiene, but the lack thereof of people in cities with high populations. As someone who doesn't wear clothing can be just as clean or unclean as someone who does.

[CABAL49]

If I had to see tits all day, eventually I would become desensitized to tits.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Nudity is the right of all sentient beings.

Though this;

If I had to see tits all day, eventually I would become desensitized to tits.

Would indeed be a terrible thing.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

But you would learn to appreciate extra fine tits even more.

[Odjn]

NSFW. (http://www.akimbocomics.com/?p=517)

[Magus]

I've never been a proponent of letting kids run around naked. It's weird. Quit letting your kids do it, and quit putting them on commercials.

On the other hand, letting your kid run around naked is less weird than dressing them like a stripper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toddlers_%26_Tiaras). That's really weird.

[pochercoaster]

I've never been a proponent of letting kids run around naked. It's weird. Quit letting your kids do it, and quit putting them on commercials.

On the other hand, letting your kid run around naked is less weird than dressing them like a stripper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toddlers_%26_Tiaras). That's really weird.

That show is way more immoral and unethical than a naked kid on the beach. Just, what the fuck. What the fuck! WHY ARE THEY SO OBSESSED WITH CHILD PAGEANTS LSKJGHDFKLSJGHLDFKSJHgfdljkghsafde4hiwq