Mass Effect 3: April 6 at PAX - Ending talk

[Bells]

So, dust has cleared (a bit) and things have quieted down a little, so, since it's close and this PAX presentation is highly waited by the fans and gaming press alike... let us discuss it for a bit and what the future reserves for Mass Effect.

Right off the bat, let me address the most popular cop out, the indoctrination theory. At first i didn't buy it one bit, not at all... and i still kinda don't. I say kinda because i saw this video

ythY_GkEBck

It's SO well made and polished... it amazes me how people manage to pick and twist oversights of production and programming and turn them into these amazing parallel universes within the game.

Now, i'm 100% sure bioware will -not- go that route. However, it would be a fun nod to the audience if they added extra scenes to the end of the game absorbing this explanation into the canon of the original ending. Not going back and changing it... but going beyond and changing it.

What i would dare to bet it's more simple... the talked "Take back Omega" DLC... as we all know, there is quite a lot of room in the game for this mission to happen in DLC form... it's actually a bit sad that it's not in the main game, because it sure as hell alludes to it !

What i think Bioware will try to do is sell us the Omega DLC. And it's going to be a big one. And if you buy it, and play it... then, there should be some modifier in Omega that going there and taking it back from the illusive man, would trigger a completely new ending(s)...

That way, Bioware wouldn't negate it's own product, it wouldn't change it... instead, they would add to it, expand it. Maybe this way is not the best... but there are no perfect solutions now.

I lot of people talk about Bioware's artistic integrity... but at least for me, the way they are doing it now is fully in accord to it. I mean, Mass Effect as a gaming franchise is an oddball in the gaming market... it's just strange to market an entire franchise towards "Your choice makes the story" and then start complaining that the player has zero authority on how the story should end... "You can play and mold this unniverse and these characters the way you want it, but the ending is OUR vision, not yours"? I don't buy it.

So, i do salute Bioware for what they are TRYING to do... if they will do it right though, it's a completely different beast. All i know is that i'll be watching what happens on April 6.

So, put my bet down for "Omega DLC with new possible endings and nods to the fanbase"

[Kim]

Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut is free, downloadable, and offers further clarity to the ending. (http://www.joystiq.com/2012/04/05/mass-effect-3-extended-cut-dlc-free-this-summer-offers-furth/)

[Osterbaum]

That's actually pretty aces, if just in the principle that they aren't charging anything. I mean it could still suck, but as long as it offers more clarity and is free, can't really complain too much.

e: like it would be awesome if all the plotholes and bullshittery never existed to begin with, but at this point I'll be content with just further clarification and more on what happens to everyone afterwards

[Ramary]

Man EA, what the hell.

This is actually not douchey, I had to PAY to make Fallout 3's ending not crap.

[Nikose Tyris]

The three DLC endings will explain that they are all meant to be nearly identical as one person cannot change anything in a meaningful way, and even the masses can't really effect the larger system as a whole.

Then it's just a video of the producers laughing about how they're going to use the money to buy out your favourite companies and make them terrible as well.

[/calling it]

[01d55]

There's no clarification that can make this work. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7MlatxLP-xs#t=2176s)
A lot of Bioware's comments on the ending controversy have contained a very unsettling word. "Clarifying." As in, "Maybe what the ending needs is clarification? Maybe if we just address some of the confusion seen here, the problem will be solved!" Nononono no. In politics, if you're explaining, you're losing, and the same thing is true here. The ending doesn't need clarification, it needs a new ending. And this ending should be simple.
The link should drop you into the relevant part of that very long video.

So we all must continue to endure this most horrifying of First World Problems.

[Bells]

humm So it's like Fallout New Vegas ending. Where It was just a bunch of Images with voice over explaining how your actions affected each place/group ou came in contact with... but this time it's going to be Cinematics.

Also means it's going to be a bit Generic. Since they probably can't render that many extra scenes to take into account all the possible variables.

I wonder who is going to be the narrator... Shepard's VA hasn't been contacted, Anderson is dead... the normandy crew are still Stranded far far away...

If it's Star Child narrating... well... that's not going to work very well...

[Sifright]

If it's Star Child narrating... well... that's not going to work very well...

If thats what it is I expect it to explode in their face so completely they won't understand what just happened.

[Solid Snake]

So I'm going to get all lawyer-like on y'alls.

It's time the gaming community make a critical distinction here.

Okay, here's the distinction that needs to be made:

1: An ending can be objectively bad, even terrible in quality;
BUT
2: So long as it delivers what was promised and offers some rudimentary degree of finality, it's permissible.

Like, here's the thing?
I see all these people on the Interwebs falling right into Bioware's trap, here.
And it is a trap!

The idea is Bioware's totally capitulating to the fanbase in providing additional "Director's Cut" content that it may not have even initially intended, and yet members of the fanbase are still ranting about how we 'deserve' a 'better' ending.
Like this is exactly what Bioware wants because finally, finally, Bioware can rightfully proclaim those fools are acting like entitled jerks.

BUT
That being said, people totally have the right to be disappointed in the lack of a new ending, and people should totally bitch and moan online about how the color-coded shenanigans are ludicrous and how the Star Child is annoying.

Like, the key is that gamers have to now distinguish between demanding new material, which would be inappropriate until we have a chance to even judge the material actually being created, or merely expressing disappointment over a crappy ending, which is legit and should continue to happen without Bioware and its defenders labeling those disappointed individuals as 'entitled jerks.'

And truth be told? Given how crappy many endings in gaming are, I'm guessing it will end with additional material that 'clarifies' shit but does not substantively improve what will be remembered as a 'bad' ending.

But yeah, it's Bioware's right to have a bad ending if they want to, so long as they at least provide the minimal degree of closure and variance that was promised before the game was released.

Like I just think we need to distinguish between an ending that's so bad and so contrary to intended declarations that a demand for change is justified, and where an ending is bad, but just kind of bad like other endings can be, and we should be expected to live with.

Until the new Director's Cut material is actually released, we won't know for sure which camp this will belong to, or even if the Indoctrination Theory will somehow prove accurate. So, we can hold off until then. (Especially since the new material will be free.)
...Or, we can actually play into Bioware's hands and come off as self-entitled jerks.

[Solid Snake]

SPOILERS

So Jessica Merizan (http://twitter.com/#!/jessicamerizan) an employee of Bioware's has released some rather substantive hints in Twitter responses to things the ME3 Director's Cut is likely going to handle.

ADDITIONAL SPOILER ALERT DO NOT HIGHLIGHT THE TEXT

Substantive Details:

* Indoctrination Theory officially appears off the table.
* Mass Relays may remain partially intact and may be potentially restored after some time.
* Nobody starves on the new planet the Normandy crashes on, somehow.
* Shepard, if alive, may be able to reunite with his crew.

EDIT: Nevermind, brand new tweet now says "I'm not making any promises."
Still why would a Bioware employee come out with those kinds of statements if they weren't true? Seems a dick move if she was making it up.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

SPOILERS
* Nobody starves on the new planet the Normandy crashes on, somehow.

But all those people in stations, on non-self sufficient worlds or in the middle of a nowheresville system are boned.

Not to mention the entirety of that interplanetary fleet, since I doubt they all brought enough food to last themselves more than a week.


But getting away from that I think Dues Ex: Human Revolution also had several critical, crippling flaws that detracted from its severely implied status as a successor to the franchise. But at least it had the decency to try. You got where they were coming from with most of the choices, and while the ending was "Here are three buttons choose your ending" at least to get those buttons you had to do something.
I personally would have much rather seen the game choose what ending my Jensen would have gotten, based on the choices I'd made previously. Like S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

[Arcanum]

If it gives a good explanation for why the Normandy is fleeing from the conflict when the Mass Relays blow up, I will be (somewhat) happy. Because that's probably one of the biggest issues I had with the ending.

[Solid Snake]

But all those people in stations, on non-self sufficient worlds or in the middle of a nowheresville system are boned.

Not to mention the entirety of that interplanetary fleet, since I doubt they all brought enough food to last themselves more than a week.

I'm guessing there will be a huge as fuck retcon to cover the fleets on Earth, though I doubt they'll dive into stations on obscure places elsewhere in the galaxy.
PS Spoiler-text that shiznay Arcanum

[Arcanum]

But spoiler text is laaaaaaaaaaaaame

[Ramary]

I think it is safe to say we don't need the tags anymore, we all already know this, and going into one of the now many ME3 threads on NPF is just asking to be spoiled.

Hell the thread title has "Ending Talk" in it.

[Azisien]

This is objectively the second smartest move Bioware could make.

It's free, so hey, who else did that take by surprise? Additional context is also one of MY biggest problems with the ending (rather, the lack thereof). I am cautiously curious.

[Bells]

My take on this is simple... this game was designed, promoted and sold under the guiding line of being a "colaboration" between player and developer. Bioware DOES give a damn about user feedback, and it's a good thing... but if you are selling your game with the marketing of saying that the story belongs to the player as much as it does to the team that made the game... then when the story goes bad and players cry foul you can't come around and say "No no no it's MY vision that counts...".

On that regard i do think Bioware (and EA!) are doing good by it's community, while trying real damn hard not give away the steering wheel of creativity control over the franchise.

I don't think this was ever planned. And sure as Hell indoctrination was never on the table. i'm sure of it.

Now, they are essentially trying to write themselves out of a corner. Which is hard enough to do... but the plot holes are essentially going to be still there. The very annoying thing that in the last second, some cop ou starchild strips Shepard of all his free will and commanding power will still remain...

As for the other stuff... MY guess is that (at least this is what i think would be the best way to get around this) they are going to show that the mass relays aren't destroyed... just severely damaged, forcing the nations of space to come together to rebuilt them in order to return home.

Also means there is a chance of we seeing races helping one another... Like, for instance, Quarians and Geth working together to rebuilt the relays and ships... stuff like that.

For joker, i think the best (pretty much only...) thing they can do will be showing Joker picking up your team on the ground on earth in order to run towards Sheppard to rescue him on the crucible. Of course, they get too late, the Crucible fires and all hell breaks loose... which THEN, we get to see Joker taking a U Turn and trying to get the hell out of there. that would make some sense... The blast that hits the Normandy would work somewhat like an Warp Drive, sling shooting the ship into some random system. Stranded, but safe. and Rescuable... but will take time.

That would work for me, because would show the Galaxy in the bottom of the pit, but showing that Sheppard's efforts allowed for them to unite and get out helping each other out. That would be... better than what we got.

[Odjn]

humm So it's like Fallout New Vegas ending. Where It was just a bunch of Images with voice over explaining how your actions affected each place/group ou came in contact with... but this time it's going to be Cinematics.

You mean like every other good Fallout game?

[Marc v4.0]

You mean like every other good Fallout game?

I think they ALL did that.

[Bells]

Which would actually be a good thing to do here.

Also, i saw the Panel via Kotaku "read out" and i'm left with a positive feeling about all of this.

Although, i'm feeling more and more sure that the next Mass Effect Game (or maybe the movie?) is going to be about the First Contact Wars.

[Ramary]

I think they ALL did that.

Not 3. But 3 did a lot of things wrong.

[Marc v4.0]

3 Had an ending slide show that recounting the effects of your choices in the game.

How did it do that and not do that at the same time?

[Marc v4.0]

Hey Hey! A Noble Goon had the luck of running in to Bioware's Patrick Weekes at PAX, and managed to ask him a few questions. He was then kind enough to bring the answers to the public! What follows is the post he made to the SA Forums thread on ME3. Possible Spoilers!



Possibly interesting new information here

Okay, here is what I asked Patrick Weekes, and his answers as best as I can remember them. I've paraphrased but I'm doing my best to stick to what he said rather than introduce any interpretation.

THESE ARE NOT DIRECT QUOTES.

-Is there still a setting to explore after the ending? Is everything ruined?

The setting is definitely not ruined. We still have a big, lively galaxy.

-Will long-distance superluminal travel still be possible post-Ending? (will Tali or Wrex or Garrus see their homeworlds again? Will everyone starve?)

Galactic civilization will rebuild. The mass relays were not necessary for interstellar flight. Remember, what does it say in the Codex about the speed of ships? That's right, 12 lightyears per (day? hour? minute?). And that's only the cruising speed, not the maximum speed.

People have never needed to research basic FTL improvements before because they have mass relays. With the relays gone, new technology will increase that speed. Additionally, the element zero cores of the dead/controlled Reapers can be used to improve FTL drives. Starflight will continue using conventional FTL.

-Why did Joker leave Shep behind?

Joker would never abandon Shep without a good reason. Hopefully this will be clear in the Expanded Cut.

-Why can EDI survive the Destroy ending?

We argued a lot about this, I said that she was made of Reapertech and should therefore be destroyed, but (unclear, don't remember - wish I'd been able to ask a followup as his response doesn't make much sense)

-Did anyone on the Citadel survive?

Yes. We would never, ever do anything that made the player feel, on replay, that it would be better for everyone on the Citadel if they just died. The Citadel has emergency shelters and kinetic barriers - even if it blows up, millions might survive. You should assume that everyone plot-important on the Citadel survived.

-Is it better for Kelly Chambers if we talk her into suicide?

No, see above.

-Who wrote the death of Joker's sister?

I did! We intentionally did not connect the dots. We were very interested to see how fast gamers figured it out.

-Whose idea was it to make the Rayya fall out of the sky if you destroy the Quarian fleet?

Someone in the audio department, it was brilliant.

-Did the mass relays pull an Arrival and go supernova?

No, they didn't. (i'm paraphrasing here, please don't interpret this too hard) They overloaded, they didn't rupture. We really didn't mean to imply that the whole galaxy had been destroyed. People interpreted the ending in ways we really didn't expect.

(Mr. Weekes dropped a lot of hints that he really didn't like the ending. He also said something that was almost 100% verbatim from the Penny Arcade Forum post often attributed to him)

-Why did Legion pull a 180 from his Mass Effect 2 philosophy?

He and the Geth were backed into a corner. They'd been made a lot dumber by the attack on the Dyson swarm. There was no other choice for Geth survival.

-What was up with the Rachni story? Why did we get railroaded?

Welcome to game development. In some games (Alpha Protocol) they make a bold choice where some decisions can knock entire missions out of the story. At BioWare, we never want people to be locked out of content due to a decision several games ago. We just didn't have the resources to do an alternate for the Rachni mission, so we decided that the Rachni mission could occur whether or not players saved the Queen.

-Why didn't (X squadmate from ME2) return?

There was a very ugly month of development where we fought out who would return. We knew we had to have a smaller cast so we could fit in more squad banter. Eventually we decided to bring Garrus and Tali back, so they could be squadmates in all three games. We also knew we'd have Vega in order for new players to have someone dumber than they were.

I was very resentful of Vega at first because I thought he was taking a slot that could've gone to a ME2 character, but he grew on me.

-Why did EDI have cameltoe?

We don't get a lot of feedback from the art department but (unclear, wish I remembered this better )

Lots of discussion about how he was uncomfortable doing Pinocchio stories for both Legion and EDI because 'EDI was fine, she was an AI, she was cool - do we really need her to turn into Commander Data? We had seven seasons of Data, that was enough.'

-Why did you write Pinocchio stories for all the synthetic characters?

See above

-What was up with the Human Reaper in ME2? Why did it look so dumb?

We wanted to use the Suicide Mission to show several steps of the Reaper development process, from human reaper embryo all the way to cuttlefish. But the mission grew too complicated so it was cut for time.

Do the Reapers really only generate one capital ship per cycle? How do they ever break even?

Well, we never totally pinned that down. But this cycle was really anomalous. They don't normally take any capital-size Reaper losses at all.

-What was up with Kai Leng? How do you feel about him?

We really wanted to have a recurring antagonist for Shep, a 'Darth Maul' (his words). But I feel like there was some definite conflict between cutscene and gameplay there, and I think it's something we have to work on.

'He was a great antagonist in the books'

-Why did we only get top and bottom dialogue choices, no middle?

Part of it was resources. Part of it is that Mass Effect 3 is a war story and it's really hard for Shep to feel middling about the Reapers.

-How did YOU feel about the ending?

(I didn't ask this, but he seems to have gone to GREAT lengths to think ways around a lot of stuff the ending implied.)

Why no female (alien X?)

Resource limitations. They have a very strict budget for how many different characters they can use in a given area. Some are basically free - if you have human males you have Batarians because they're humans with funny heads, if you have human females you have asari, etc.

Where was Harbinger? Can we ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of him?

I definitely want more closure on Harbinger. That'd be hilarious. Stop punching yourself, Harbinger.

How did the Reapers storm the Citadel? Why didn't they shut down the relays as per their original plan once they had control?

Originally we planned to have a cutscene of Reapers taking over, Reaper monsters punching buttons, et cetera. But we cut it, partially for resource reasons and partly because it disrupted the pacing.

The Reapers didn't shut down the mass relays because the Keepers interfered with that. (I wish I could've asked a follow-up here, it doesn't make much sense.)

Why don't Ken and Gabby have more dialogue?

They actually have a bunch more on disk, but we somehow introduced a bug where their dialogue is tied to your approval level with Ash. If Ash has low approval, or isn't present, most of Ken and Gabby's dialogue won't play.

Why do you guys do Star Wars style space battles instead of the battles described in the codex?

We want to provide a familiar, compelling visual experience for people who grew up on Star Wars and stuff like that. These are some of our favorite parts of the game.

Why didn't we get a bunch of different cinematics showing off our various forces fighting in the ending?

Resource and time constraints. It would've been awesome, but we just don't have the resources to create the Volus bombing fleet, the Volus dreadnought Compensator (he actually said this), etc.

Things I wish I'd asked:

Why the damn Starchild?

What was up with the Stargazer? (He touched on the Stargazer once and pretty much said 'oh, yeah, the Stargazer.'

Again: NOT DIRECT QUOTES. These are NOT OFFICIAL BIOWARE STATEMENTS. Please don't fuck Patrick Weekes over by posting these as 'official BioWare PR' or whatever. Please feel free to ask me follow-up questions, as I definitely didn't cover the whole conversation with him.

My takeaway was: the epilogue DLC is probably going to do a lot of good and be pretty well written, and Patrick Weekes should've been lead writer on ME3.

[Red Mage Black]

I dunno man, all I see is a bunch of excuses such as 'resources' and 'time constraints'. Which I think coming from EA, is a bunch of bullshit. They're a huge cash cow and using an excuse like 'resources' pretty much kills any respect I thought I had left. So rejoice ME3 players, you'll get your clarification for the ending, but with the hard earned money you already spent to buy a game that was half-assed so they could continue to shank you for it.

[Bells]

i feel reassured with theses Semi-quotes put in place. But here is what bugs me...

For ME3, you are picking the Engine from ME2, polishing it up a bit and going at it... (and wasn't even that much polishing, there are quite a few Game/Graphical bugs) why was there so much lack of Resources and time when it's essentially a smaller game (less actual content, even if the actual content is a big longer) ?

The last part (and some others... like the Entire Samara section and a lot of the stuff with Miranda and Jack) does feel rushed. And if they tell me "we didn't have the time to do it right or the resources" i would totally believe that.

But then i would ask... WHY? I mean, this game is such a big deal and it has been in development for quite a while, why would any company deny ANY resource needed for the team to make it just perfect? For a game like this you already know that the profit WILL come... for me it just makes no damn sense.

[Osterbaum]

I'll just blame EA somehow and call it a day.

[Yrcrazypa]

EA likely could have given Bioware a development cycle, and funds of "However much you need" and STILL made a shitload of money. Unfortunate that they seem to be instead giving them less and less per game, and seeing if they can do more with less.

[Azisien]

Of course you should blame EA. Leave it to developers alone and I am sure they would enjoy five hundred million dollar budgets and doubled dev times. Take away from that interview? ME3 should have been out in 2013.

[Bells]

even though i have nothing against the multiplayer... i just kinda have to deal with the bittersweet taste of knowing that building and making the multiplayer section of the game is likely where all those extra hours and resources went...

[Arcanum]

I dunno man, all I see is a bunch of excuses such as 'resources' and 'time constraints'. Which I think coming from EA, is a bunch of bullshit. They're a huge cash cow and using an excuse like 'resources' pretty much kills any respect I thought I had left. So rejoice ME3 players, you'll get your clarification for the ending, but with the hard earned money you already spent to buy a game that was half-assed so they could continue to shank you for it.

There's these things called budgets that govern pretty much every single business. I'm talking about full on budgets that were planned a year or two before the game even started development. This would also include a time frame for Bioware to get the game done. Extend the dev time means more money being put into a game without seeing money in return, which is a terrible thing for corporations.

So resources and time constraints are a viable reason, and were pretty much the reasons I expected.

Would delaying ME3 to 2013 have made it a better game? Definitely. Would the improvements in that year generate additional sales that would offset the costs? EA didn't think so, and they're the ones calling the shots.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

So resources and time constraints are a viable reason, and were pretty much the reasons I expected.

I'd accept it if it was an honest "We mismanaged the resources and time we had" Not "The resources and time did not exist"

You can talk about how they were on a budget but really think about how much of that budget went into hiring Chobot to voice a character nobody ever asked for and their massive ad campaign.
(I'm not literally implying hiring Chobot took up all that much money but it seems like the best stupid thing to highlight how wasteful their production has been)

[Bells]

I'm not sure, but i THINK Advertising budget is not actually connected to development budget.

Alternatively, Having Chobot in the game was absolutely unnecessary and wastefull. I would enjoy it ten times more if the game pulled a cheap one on you forcing Shepard to play PR to that reporter that's been around during all 3 games... as in, if you were an asshole to her, now you would have a hard time getting the press on your side. If you played along, she would also help you out.

As a result you could've get a couple of extra sidequests or Spectre orders... fuck, even a Discount on all shops would've been nice.

Because not only was Chobot useless in that game, but her entire reporter bit has no play in the game at all.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I'm not saying it is directly, just that EA needs to get its priorities straight with this shit.
It spent all that money on advertising but apparently Patrick feels he wasn't given a big enough budget to make the thing they were advertising.

[Sifright]

even though i have nothing against the multiplayer... i just kinda have to deal with the bittersweet taste of knowing that building and making the multiplayer section of the game is likely where all those extra hours and resources went...

I actually disagree it's painfully obvious that the multi player had very little time and effort spent on it. Firstly there is absolutely no separation between the singleplayer and multiplayer game settings and rule mechanics multiplayer was tacked on in the fastest and cheapest way possible. Thats not to say that multiplayer didn't take away any resources it just wasn't responsible for the ending being a piece of shit.

That responsibility lies at the end of the day with the senior producer and writers.

[Locke cole]

Speaking as a guy who hasn't actually played a Mass Effect game:

How do the ships go multiple lightyears in a day without giant teleporter gates?

[Kim]

Giant teleporter gates.

[Locke cole]

But big quote of responses said that the ships' cruising speed was multiple lightyears per (day?), without the mass relays.

How do they do that?

[Marc v4.0]

I can't remember either if the codex said days or months, but Mass Drives help them do it, is how. Element Zero.

SPACE MAGIC. Pretty much the reason everything else is the way everything else is.

The Relays just let them travel at an instant. Which was part of the entire Reaper plot to make sure they develop a certain way.

[Arcanum]

There's this thing called Element Zero that can perform space magic science.

e- Haha ninja'd by the exact same explanation.

[Marc v4.0]

Honestly, at this point in the life of the series how the hell do you not know it's SPACE MAGIC?

[Locke cole]

By only having been exposed to the series via hilarious Youtube videos of out-of-context quotes, Awkward Zombie, the deadliness of Sir Isaac Newton, and the unavoidable outrage over the third game's ending.

I do plan on playing them some day, because they sound like a whole lot of fun.

As such, I though that the Mass Relays were the only form of FTL travel, because I didn't know all about the space magic. But I'm fine with accepting space magic.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

I never got why people always fought the Mass Relays were the ONLY form of FTL travel in the series, since in every game you can fly to completely seperate solar systems that have no Relays in them at all and which you have to burn through fuel in order to get too. I mean, unless people were completely blind or were being deliberately obtuse with their rage over the ending, since even die hard fans seem to have ignored this fact and you'd figured they'd have know that.

[Bells]

wait for the first game to be re-released in HD.

Because that's totally going to happen. Just like the next Game in the Mass Effect world is going to be how Shepard became "Shepard" with the first contact wars and the blitz mentioned in the first game.

Actually i would NOT be surprised if they released this prequel and then re-released the first game updated and in HD afterwards, using the save file from the prequel to give it a fresh coat of paint and various gameplay bonus (and a new incentive to replay the whole damn series again)

i would actually put down to bet on this.

[Azisien]

You must mean Super-HD, the stuff we'll have in 2015, because I think ME1 is already pretty HD.

[Bells]

well, mostly i mean making this

http://theallgamingblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/imgMass-Effect2.jpg

look more closer to this

http://www.capsulecomputers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/mass-effect-beta-screenshot-500x283.jpg

as an excuse to sell an updated game

[Sifright]

To be honest the whole element zero thing is really poorly thought out because even cursory glance at how they tell you it works basically gives you straight access to infinite energy machines.

[Arcanum]

I never got why people always fought the Mass Relays were the ONLY form of FTL travel in the series, since in every game you can fly to completely seperate solar systems that have no Relays in them at all and which you have to burn through fuel in order to get too. I mean, unless people were completely blind or were being deliberately obtuse with their rage over the ending, since even die hard fans seem to have ignored this fact and you'd figured they'd have know that.

Wait you mean those systems aren't a few kilometers away from each other?

[Kim]

Rumors about what I "really thought" about the ending are untrue. Please don't use me in attacks on my coworkers and friends. Made whole game as part of a team. And when we release Ending DLC, we'll be doing that as team, too. Thanks.

Just thought I'd share this.

[Bells]

where is that from Liz?

[Marc v4.0]

I'm willing to bet It's from the pressure PR and Corporate are putting on him over not being more careful who he said what to~

[Kim]

It seems a bit silly to treat everything as, "If it even partially supports what I've been saying then it's proof I'm 100% correct, and if it doesn't then it's all lies and corporate pressure." I mean, EA is a business so they're at minimum kinda evil, but a lot of this reads like people looking for the evidence that supports their conclusions.

[Bells]

but a lot of this reads like people looking for the evidence that supports their conclusions.

That's pretty much the norm online...

[Osterbaum]

The Relays just let them travel at an instant.
I was under the impression that travel with Mass Relays still took time, like I dunno days or at least hours. I also never quite figured out if the Mass Relays are supposed to connect to one another? Because more than once we see a ship jumping through a Mass Relay to somewhere with no Mass Relay in sight.

[Locke cole]

I do want to say that I kinda already knew that there were other forms of FTL or near FTL travel, I just didn't know what they were.

[Osterbaum]

The ships have Mass Effect cores that function on Element Zero ie. SPACE MAGIC!!! This allows them to like have no mass and thus accelerate to incredibly fast speeds or something...? In any case, FTL travel was always possible without Mass Relays, it was just so much more slower that it would still take them years at the least to travel the distances that the Mass Relays propel them.

[Marc v4.0]

It seems a bit silly to treat everything as, "If it even partially supports what I've been saying then it's proof I'm 100% correct, and if it doesn't then it's all lies and corporate pressure." I mean, EA is a business so they're at minimum kinda evil, but a lot of this reads like people looking for the evidence that supports their conclusions.

Considering how badly the PR reps blew up at the Goon who actually posted this, I don't think it is completely unreasonable to assume Peter said something he shouldn't have and that he got at least a stern talking to and then had to got on record and play nice. Pretending that isn't the MO of any business when something like this happens is either childishly naivie or selectivly ignorant for the sake of combativness.


But hey, whatever. NERD SHIT and all that, eh?

[Kim]

I didn't see PR reps blowing up at this guy, merely what the guy himself said, so that colored my interpretation somewhat.

[Marc v4.0]

Yeah, I went back to get some of the hilariously over-the-top tweets she sent to the poster regarding what he posted, but holy shit the thread has grown 100 pages since then.

[Azisien]

All FTL in sci-fi is space magic. There is no FTL in real life. The real universe is boring and shitty. Eezo really brightens things up for everybody.

[stefan]

I never got why people always fought the Mass Relays were the ONLY form of FTL travel in the series, since in every game you can fly to completely seperate solar systems that have no Relays in them at all and which you have to burn through fuel in order to get too. I mean, unless people were completely blind or were being deliberately obtuse with their rage over the ending, since even die hard fans seem to have ignored this fact and you'd figured they'd have know that.

its actually stated in the first game that non-Mass Relay FTL is not really practical except over short distances because the drive builds up static electricity and will murdershock the whole crew if you let it build up for too long.

in other words, its another example of Bioware pulling bullshit out of their ass because they've apparently forgotten how to not write yourself into a fucking corner.

[Marc v4.0]

You can discharge the drive core static into the magnetospheres of planets, though

[stefan]

You can discharge the drive core static into the magnetospheres of planets, though

where the fuck are you going to find a planet with a suitable magnetosphere when you are travelling through deep space.

[01d55]

Yeah it's not so much that the Galaxy is screwed forever just because the keystone of their transportation infrastructure basically vanished, as it is that there is a huge pile of various aliens who happened to be in the same place when that happened and the local infrastructure has been thoroughly wrecked, so they have severe short term problems.

Any Quarians or Geth who stayed behind on Rannoch while the fleet went to Earth will probably be fine. (In fact, the Geth in general seem to be well suited to getting on with their lives without the Relays.) But the surviving organic crew of the Crucible fleet looked to be in pretty dire straights.

The thing is the endings are hella vague so there are a lot of equally plausible reads on it (www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7MlatxLP-xs#t=558s) (time link to relevant segment of very long video). Maybe they have footing to work things out fine, maybe they're all fucked. We have no way to tell!

[Marc v4.0]

where the fuck are you going to find a planet with a suitable magnetosphere when you are travelling through deep space.

Plan your trips accordingly!

[Krylo]

Plan your trips accordingly!

Also the galaxy is pretty dense in stars. There shouldn't actually be that much traveling through big empty swathes of space as they aren't popping from galaxy to galaxy, just from system to system. It should be possible to make routes hopping from star to star from basically any point to basically any other point in the galaxy.

Some might be circumlocutious but they aren't traveling through deep space. They're traveling through the Milky Way Galaxy.

Further, there's room for lots of improvements on ship drive fields vis a vis long distance travel as that no one bothered doing any. And it's obviously possible as the Reapers are able to do it and work on exactly the same technology.

There'd be short term problems, and would probably cascade out into larger problems with isolated communities growing into their own nation states in the time it'd take to re-establish trade routes and stuff, but given the space magic of the galaxy as it existed as of the ME trilogy, we wouldn't be looking at a complete cessation of trade or communication.

[CABAL49]

Yeah, I don't think they used the mass relays to communicate. I could be wrong about that though. But now that they have reaper tech, I imagine ftl drives are going to get a serious upgrade. While I don't think it is stated how far in dead space the Reapers were, they'd have to be travelling pretty damn fast to get to Earth when they did. You already see the effect Sovereign had on the council races technology. So it may take a few years at most, but it would be possible for the Quarians to see Rannoch again. I guess I should get around to getting ME3. I wanted to get my perfect save from ME1 and 2 first.

[Osterbaum]

Further, there's room for lots of improvements on ship drive fields vis a vis long distance travel as that no one bothered doing any. And it's obviously possible as the Reapers are able to do it and work on exactly the same technology.
I'm not sure I buy that nobody worked on improving conventional FTL drives, since they still play a huge role in travel and improving them would allow travel to locations not connected to the Mass Relay network.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

I was under the impression that travel with Mass Relays still took time, like I dunno days or at least hours. I also never quite figured out if the Mass Relays are supposed to connect to one another? Because more than once we see a ship jumping through a Mass Relay to somewhere with no Mass Relay in sight.

More like minutes to travel through a relay, hence their importance. That jump from Omega to the galactic core in ME2, that was real time, or near enough. As for their operation, there are 2 types; primaries and secondaries. Primary relays connect only to 1 other primary and allow jumps of thousands of lightyears. Secondary relays can jump you to ANY other relay, but only within a range of a few hundred lightyears.

its actually stated in the first game that non-Mass Relay FTL is not really practical except over short distances because the drive builds up static electricity and will murdershock the whole crew if you let it build up for too long.

in other words, its another example of Bioware pulling bullshit out of their ass because they've apparently forgotten how to not write yourself into a fucking corner.

Not practical because it's slower, but still totally viable because you obviously do it tons in game, and without the relays any more, well it's pretty much the only way to do things now. Sure it'll take years to get anywhere, but at least you CAN get there, albeit making hundreds or thousands of stops along the way.

The Quarians are still pretty screwed though, since even at max speed (12 lightyears per day (max speed confirmed, look it up on the wiki or the codex)), it would take them about 20 years to get home (estimate) based on how their homeworld is on the complete opposite side of the galaxy from earth.

Other races might not be so screwed, since I seem to recall a few other homeworlds were at least relatively close to earth, but it would still take years to get back probably, so food is going to be the main issue for most, especially the Quarians and Turians since they can't eat the same food as most other races, though I'm guessing since they've lived in space for centuries that the Quarians must have some ability to grow their own supply.

Other races are going to be left to try and divide up whatever resources are left on earth and any other (most likely devastated) systems that are in range, which could lead to in-fighting.

So yeah, everyone's gona have to fight over food and eezo, then get the hell out of dodge and start Star Trek Voyagering their way home for several years if not decades, which is pretty crappy all round, but still doable.

Oh and I think FTL communication is in fact out as well. I seem to to recall a codex entry mentioning that the comms networks actually do piggyback on the relays null space corridors to function, although how that works I don't know, since radio transmissions are massless anyway, but I guess they needed some way to explain how different systems can talk to each other without waiting years. There's still some delay with the average comms systems mind, since all the data gets prioritized and there's limited bandwidth through relays so it's more like forum posting where you have to wait hours or days for a reply (or minutes if it's a military channel).

The only other reliable FTL communication is that quantum entanglement transmitter that the Normandy has, but I dunno how widespread those have become.

[Sifright]

More like minutes to travel through a relay, hence their importance. That jump from Omega to the galactic core in ME2, that was real time, or near enough. As for their operation, there are 2 types; primaries and secondaries. Primary relays connect only to 1 other primary and allow jumps of thousands of lightyears. Secondary relays can jump you to ANY other relay, but only within a range of a few hundred lightyears.



Not practical because it's slower, but still totally viable because you obviously do it tons in game, and without the relays any more, well it's pretty much the only way to do things now. Sure it'll take years to get anywhere, but at least you CAN get there, albeit making hundreds or thousands of stops along the way.

The Quarians are still pretty screwed though, since even at max speed (12 lightyears per day (max speed confirmed, look it up on the wiki or the codex)), it would take them about 20 years to get home (estimate) based on how their homeworld is on the complete opposite side of the galaxy from earth.

Other races might not be so screwed, since I seem to recall a few other homeworlds were at least relatively close to earth, but it would still take years to get back probably, so food is going to be the main issue for most, especially the Quarians and Turians since they can't eat the same food as most other races, though I'm guessing since they've lived in space for centuries that the Quarians must have some ability to grow their own supply.

Other races are going to be left to try and divide up whatever resources are left on earth and any other (most likely devastated) systems that are in range, which could lead to in-fighting.

So yeah, everyone's gona have to fight over food and eezo, then get the hell out of dodge and start Star Trek Voyagering their way home for several years if not decades, which is pretty crappy all round, but still doable.

Oh and I think FTL communication is in fact out as well. I seem to to recall a codex entry mentioning that the comms networks actually do piggyback on the relays null space corridors to function, although how that works I don't know, since radio transmissions are massless anyway, but I guess they needed some way to explain how different systems can talk to each other without waiting years. There's still some delay with the average comms systems mind, since all the data gets prioritized and there's limited bandwidth through relays so it's more like forum posting where you have to wait hours or days for a reply (or minutes if it's a military channel).

The only other reliable FTL communication is that quantum entanglement transmitter that the Normandy has, but I dunno how widespread those have become.

Doesn't the the speed limit of 12 light years a day have pretty terrible implications about how long ME3 actually lasted because I recall doing a shit load of intra system travel and 12 light years a day puts the events of ME3 taking even longer than I would consider acceptable given the suddeness of the reapers shitting on earth and suddenly shepard goes for a six month sabbatical..

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Yeah, it does, though I kinda figured that was going on even as I was flying around, before I knew the actual speed was 12 LY/d. Just the fact that in my 44 hour game I travelled to every single star system on the map, sometimes more than once, implied that this was set over a pretty long period of time, and that there was still fighting on all of these worlds means the fighting must have been really fierce. Either that or the Reapers were actually pretty slow and terrible at subjagating entire worlds.

There again the first trailer for the game stated that something like only 2 million people died in the first few days or something, so I shouldn't have been surprised at how slow and non-threatening they actually were. And then Liara tells you it would take them 100 years for the Reapers to wipe out everyone and complete the cycle as well. So the Reapers really were pretty laid back about conquering, which does make sense since they're immortal and can take as much time as they needed, but doesn't really make for a faced paced "omg the universe is in DANGER!" game.

So yeah, either the fighting was long winded and fierce, or the Reapers were slow and almost casual about the domination of the galaxy, take your pick.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Isn't this just a case with every RPG ever though?7
Oh no a meteor is coming to crash into the planet we must stop it right away- But first, let's hit the casino! And sexy time!

[CABAL49]

I think that is what Bioware tried with DA2 in the random travels of Ethan Hawke. And people hated it. (I know, not for that reason.)

[Azisien]

Yeah, it does, though I kinda figured that was going on even as I was flying around, before I knew the actual speed was 12 LY/d. Just the fact that in my 44 hour game I travelled to every single star system on the map, sometimes more than once, implied that this was set over a pretty long period of time, and that there was still fighting on all of these worlds means the fighting must have been really fierce. Either that or the Reapers were actually pretty slow and terrible at subjagating entire worlds.

There again the first trailer for the game stated that something like only 2 million people died in the first few days or something, so I shouldn't have been surprised at how slow and non-threatening they actually were. And then Liara tells you it would take them 100 years for the Reapers to wipe out everyone and complete the cycle as well. So the Reapers really were pretty laid back about conquering, which does make sense since they're immortal and can take as much time as they needed, but doesn't really make for a faced paced "omg the universe is in DANGER!" game.

So yeah, either the fighting was long winded and fierce, or the Reapers were slow and almost casual about the domination of the galaxy, take your pick.

It's regrettable that they didn't more explicitly state the time involved. Just from a narrative point of view, I thought the Crucible was constructed way too fast. But if I had even just had a timer saying "247 days since the Fall of Earth" I would have been like, oh, okay sweet.