E3 2012 - OMG L337 BBQ [Archive] - The Warring States of NPF

Solid Snake

06-03-2012, 06:11 PM

Weirdly, for the first time in several years, I'm really looking forward to this year's E3.

I think the lower expectations is actually helping me come to terms with things. In the past I've gotten my hopes up with such ludicrous notions as an FFVII remake or major game announcements that would change the paradigm of things. And, in the past, I've been fairly desperate for Sony to come out swinging to justify my investment in the PS3.

This year...I'm kind of satisfied with things? Grateful that the PS4 and the X720 appear to be on the backburner as I (apparently, in the minority) still think that this gen consoles has some life left in 'em, but if an X720 or a PS4 announcement comes out of nowhere, I won't be shocked.

I think the one thing that I am on pins and needles about is The Last Guardian. Aside from that, though, I'm pretty content with things. In a strange sense I think the failure of the Kinect and the Move has added to my complacency -- last year I felt way too much a ruckus was being made about motion control, and this year it just feels like that misguided hype may have died down.

Not really interested in the Wii U, though. I think Nintendo's going to be a victim of poor timing, with hype for the X720 / PS4 building not long after its release. And several of the new Wii U shenanigans feels like stuff the X360 and the PS3 already do, and quite possibly do better.

I mean yes, it's good for Nintendo to finally recognize that online gaming exists, and I do anticipate the Wii U will be more attractive to hardcore gamers than the Wii. But I think the problem Nintendo faces is pretty much summed up by my parents, the classic casual gamers who got roped into gaming for the first time with the Wii party games. They don't even know the Wii U exists. And most of its new innovations aren't geared towards convincing them to make the upgrade.

It's like Nintendo's caught in some weird middle ground where it's trying to simultaneously maintain its casual base while expanding into the hardcore market dominated by Microsoft and Sony, but the risk is that it will lose on both fronts.

The Wii U lineup will be quite telling. If it includes a lot of multiplatform games that are also coming out for the PS3 or X360 (or, in the worst case scenario for Nintendo, that have already been released on the PS3 or X360), I can't see anyone justifying the additional purchase even if the game technically looks prettier on the Wii U. The key for Nintendo is not only to spark third party developer interest but also to rope those third party developers into developing games that can only run exclusively on the Wii U or that requires additional hardware on the scope of the X720 or the PS4. If Nintendo essentially forces Sony and Microsoft to go into a period where there's a dearth of quality PS3 / X360 titles because everyone's going Wii U or waiting for Sony and Microsoft's next gen efforts, Nintendo can then reap the rewards during that period when only the Wii U is active.

Bells

06-03-2012, 06:13 PM

'i'm still curious about the price point though... i mean, those Tablet-Controllers cannot be very cheap.... i'm thinki, what... 250 for console, and at least 120 per controller?

Solid Snake

06-03-2012, 06:18 PM

'i'm still curious about the price point though... i mean, those Tablet-Controllers cannot be very cheap.... i'm thinki, what... 250 for console, and at least 120 per controller?

Yeah, the price-point may also deter casuals.

Despite my identity as a hardcore gamer I can't help but feel as if Nintendo may actually be making its big mistake in trying to appeal to me as opposed to trying to appeal to the new casual base they essentially discovered out of nowhere with the Wii.

I actually really enjoyed how Wii redefined gaming as a whole, as bringing my grandparents and parents and other casuals into the loop has lessened the stigma associated with the activity. I actually wouldn't have minded one bit if Nintendo left me to Microsoft and Sony's whims and tried to compete for my family instead. It'll be interesting to see whether and to what extent Nintendo reaches out to casuals over the next few days and in the next several months.

Locke cole

06-03-2012, 06:52 PM

The Wii U Pro Controller makes me think that third-party interest will be sparked much more easily in companies that would otherwise be scared off by the new controller.

Kyanbu The Legend

06-03-2012, 07:02 PM

All shall be revealed this week. It gonna be rough for big N but right now ports are the only way to get third party devs on board.

Who knows this could be Big Ns last stand from the looks of it. The WiiU will need to boast processing power far beyond PS3/360 combined or some how get a choke hold on games if they're going to compete with PS4 and the next gen X-Box.

Locke cole

06-03-2012, 07:09 PM

Whenever those come out.

And I was under the impression that Ninty did well for themselves with the Wii, despite not actively getting into the battle for supremacy, as it were.

Solid Snake

06-03-2012, 07:14 PM

And I was under the impression that Ninty did well for themselves with the Wii, despite not actively getting into the battle for supremacy, as it were.

I think the mistake is actually Nintendo reengaging in that battle for supremacy, but that may just be me.
It's like if a star boxer retires and starts a successful florist company, and then you ask that boxer to go back into the ring for another round while still managing that company.
...I have no idea why that image popped into my head but it'd make for a fun movie.

This definitely won't be Nintendo's last hurrah, though. Even if the Wii U bombs, I don't expect them to disappear. Handhelds and first-party titles will always keep Nintendo in the game, even if increased marginalization makes the Wii U look more like the Gamecube and less like the Wii.

Kyanbu The Legend

06-03-2012, 07:20 PM

Whenever those come out.

And I was under the impression that Ninty did well for themselves with the Wii, despite not actively getting into the battle for supremacy, as it were.

They did well this gen. Might even go as far as to say that in the end the wii is still a pretty rad little guy. Would've been on pars/better then 360/ PS3 if it got more good titles.

Ramary

06-03-2012, 07:39 PM

The stupid as shit demonstration with the hipster guy and the grandpa had me in stitches.

All it needed was Joel/Mike and the bots silhouetted at the bottom of the screen.

Oh right the WiiU thing. No judgement till I see actual games, but it is nice to see Nintendo make an actual attempt at internet communities.

Bells

06-03-2012, 10:08 PM

They did well this gen. Might even go as far as to say that in the end the wii is still a pretty rad little guy. Would've been on pars/better then 360/ PS3 if it got more good titles.

It did Okay... after owning a wii for a few years and having played literally more than a 100 games on the system i can say that, in quite fairness... it was not half the hype it claimed to be.

I mean, ALL the better games on the console, the very best ones. Even flagship titles use Motion Control as a tacked on after thought. I understand that the real use of Motion control is to either make a whole game around it (which VERY FEW Wii games did satisfactory) or to have it as an extension of gameplay that adds to the experience (which even less of them did.) there was nothing outside of a few Sports game (best fun i ever had with Golf and Tennis.) that could not be done as good or better with just buttons... and don't even get me started on the whole WiiMotion+ crap...

Now with the WiiU, they have a controller with a Touchpad tablet in it... you could say that Nintendo's experience with the entire DS System would allow them to have a much better grasp on how to deal with that concept... but only actual game demonstrations will tell. The fact that on Launch they alread have avaliable another controller that is pretty much the same thing minus the screen already shows the Nintendo does not want to be totally dependent on the screen gimmick

Ryong

06-03-2012, 10:22 PM

On the Wii:

Man, I played New Super Mario Bros a few times and ugh that spin jump. Same goes for Donkey Kong Returns where you need to do the same just to roll and stuff, it's annoying.

Also, have you guys seen the size of the darn tablet? That thing's gonna be heavy.

phil_

06-03-2012, 11:41 PM

probably weighs far too much.Also, have you guys seen the size of the darn tablet? That thing's gonna be heavy.Last year the impressions concerning the prototype's weight ranged from "It's not as heavy as it looks" to "It's pretty light." Source (http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-21539_7-20069744-10391702.html), source (http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/e3-2011-hands-on-with-the-wii-u-controller/), source (http://bitmob.com/articles/e3-2011-quick-impressions-of-the-wii-u-controller), counter-argument source (http://bitmob.com/articles/e3-2011-quick-impressions-of-the-wii-u-controller); gathered by taking the first four hits off google. That last one is from someone who never touched the controller, though. Maybe Nintendo added some lead weights since then because reasons, but I doubt a new button and different sticks added significantly to its weight, otherwise.

Locke cole

06-04-2012, 05:22 AM

I think that the pro controller is a very good thing. Whatever my opinion on the tablet is, I understand that not every game will be improved with its use. So, unlike with the Wii, game devs can just make games with a traditional control scheme and not worry about the tablet.

Also, this way, symmetrical multiplayer can be done in a way that doesn't require wiimotes.

Azisien

06-04-2012, 07:26 AM

Who cares if the controller is heavy, nerds could use the exercise.

Ryong

06-04-2012, 07:40 AM

Last year the impressions concerning the prototype's weight ranged from "It's not as heavy as it looks" to "It's pretty light." Source (http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-21539_7-20069744-10391702.html), source (http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/e3-2011-hands-on-with-the-wii-u-controller/), source (http://bitmob.com/articles/e3-2011-quick-impressions-of-the-wii-u-controller), counter-argument source (http://bitmob.com/articles/e3-2011-quick-impressions-of-the-wii-u-controller); gathered by taking the first four hits off google. That last one is from someone who never touched the controller, though. Maybe Nintendo added some lead weights since then because reasons, but I doubt a new button and different sticks added significantly to its weight, otherwise.

Did you see the hipster ad?

It's not exactly small.

Locke cole

06-04-2012, 07:41 AM

You said it was going to be heavy.

Yeah, you mentioned the size, as well, but only as a factor leading to your idea of its weight.

phil_

06-04-2012, 10:02 AM

Did you see the HYYYYYYPPPPPSST-TUR ad?

It's not exactly small.I did see it.

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/2871/27724910.gif

Locke cole

06-04-2012, 10:33 AM

That was just weird. Amusing, but weird.

"Yeah, our system is for grandparents. Grandparents who kill zombies!"

Heck, Iwata was perfectly aware of how weird that was.

phil_

06-04-2012, 11:31 AM

Why aren't you people in chat? It's Xbox time.

Locke cole

06-04-2012, 11:57 AM

Chat?

Fenris

06-04-2012, 12:09 PM

Chat?

Chat! (http://www.nuklearforums.com/chat/)

phil_

06-04-2012, 12:41 PM

Loyal didn't know there was Nintendo propaganda to watch. Here it is. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9AkPdAWfFjI) Now everyone will be on the same page.

Thank you, Usher, for giving me a break to make this post.

Ramary

06-04-2012, 12:59 PM

Microsoft's sucked all around, only good thing was the South Park game. But something good out of the Microsoft conference is better then their usual complete suckage, but it was also so borrrrrrrrring, it was not really hilariously bad like last few years with the little kids playing Kinect, just kinda....sad.

Microsoft has set the bar below sea level, next up to bat...EA! and their amazing falling stock prices.

Bells

06-04-2012, 12:59 PM

So... i'm no Xbox Fanboy, but THAT was underwhelming...

phil_

06-04-2012, 01:02 PM

I like how I was all, "Why are you showing us how to connect our smart phone to our Xbox? This is lame," when I'm going to be humping Nintendo's leg come tomorrow for showing the exact same thing, minus the ability to make phone calls. Such is life.

Still, I feel a bit cheated out of my Xenoblade time for today by this, which is dumb because what was I expecting, games that aren't about shooting people?

Bells

06-04-2012, 01:06 PM

so, i just saw the Resident Evil 6 Trailer... let me ask this:

Why does Leon need to peak around corners to beat Zombies? They all already walk towards him anyway... and why does a Knife to the neck/chest works against Zombies?

Locke cole

06-04-2012, 01:10 PM

He should have busted out a bow and arrow.

Ramary

06-04-2012, 01:10 PM

OH OH also the Halo 4 tagline

AN ANCIENT EVIL HAS AWAKEN

I could not believe they actually used that, I was in stitches after that.

And that Angry Birds but in 333333DDDDDDDDDDDD game. Man, this E3 is gonna be....something I guess.

Bells

06-04-2012, 01:14 PM

Halo 4 is taken the Reboot route from what i get...

"Yes, we know that by this point you are aware that there is a Major Military force backing up your character, and that he is a war hero, so we're going to dump you in this Bizarre alien location, stranded and outnumbered were you will find a multitude of Enemies that are Primitive and yet bizarrely over Technological so you'll be outgunned too."

Marc v4.0

06-04-2012, 01:45 PM

I wouldn't call exceedingly advanced lost technology of a dead race 'primitive', really.

Solid Snake

06-04-2012, 02:15 PM

...Sounds like I didn't miss much with Microsoft's E3.

Despite this, I look forward to reading all the 'professionals' perspectives on U.S. news websites informing me that Microsoft handily won E3.

Bells

06-04-2012, 02:28 PM

25 Minutes until EA's Show, join the NPF Panel of Bashing and hatred in the NPF Chat where our commentators will give you full coverage on the coverage being done by those covering it.

Ramary

06-04-2012, 03:59 PM

Um....EA was better then Microsoft's I guess?

Simcity looks neat at least.

Bells

06-04-2012, 04:10 PM

I don't want to bitch and moan... but everything so far looked really, really underwhelming.

a Plethora of Social gaming and media that i really don't care much about and it seems quite pointless...

a Simcity that looks like... well, Simcity really...

Need For Speed that is a Direct, unbiased carbon copy of Burnout Paradise.

ANCIENT EEEEEEEEVIL

Brown Shooter with Call of Duty : Skynet

Grey Shooter with Medal of Honor : Better play as Wall-E

Crysis 3 or "God-Damn Prophet took out the God-Damn Gunship with the God-Damn Bow so he wouldn't God-Damn screw up the God-Damn mission"

Some nonsensical bullshit about UFC...

NFL and FIFA with MOAR PHYSICS BATTLES....

OH! And Usher Dance Central 3 THe Ushering

Solid Snake

06-04-2012, 06:18 PM

Ubisoft was basically Assassin's Creed 3: Kill More Brits Edition, endless amounts of crap, and...

...Watch Dogs.

A new IP! And it looks beautiful!
And they were using a PS3 controller!
And I'm mildly excited!

Locke cole

06-04-2012, 06:28 PM

ACIII is Assassin's Creed with Free Running in TREES.

TREE-RUNNING.

Bells

06-04-2012, 06:38 PM

Also, Templar Deer.

I liked Rayman (the music stage looked very nice,but it takes more than that to make a good game.) And i Liked "Live Free or Die hard" The game (Watch Dogs)

also they kicked off with Wild Wild West, that gets MAJOR points with me.

Too much on Stage bullshit though, but so far, the best presentation...

Locke cole

06-04-2012, 06:55 PM

Yeah. They had more games than Microsoft, and more interesting games than EA.

Also, 2 more games for this year's Bow Count.

Ryong

06-04-2012, 07:11 PM

Microsoft was shit, South Park dudes were the only good thing.

EA was shit except for Need For Speed Most Wanted (2?) and Sim City.

Ubisoft was fantastic with Rayman and Watch Dogs. ZombiU was just a trailer, so fuck that, even if it looked nice. I'm not sure about Far Cry 3, but it at least was nicer than the other shooters shown.

Also: Fuck, Lara confirmed for unkillable.

Solid Snake

06-04-2012, 07:19 PM

Not to be the crusading type, but my main problem with Far Cry 3 is that the whole premise just seemed racist and sexist as shit.

Also, there's a difference between sex scenes that add value to the plot and justify their existence as integral to the story, and sex scenes that are just gratuitous. Maybe Far Cry 3's sex scene is the former, maybe it's the latter; we won't have any way to know definitively until reviewers play it. Regardless, there's absolutely no reason for that scene to be in a TRAILER.

I felt markedly uncomfortable watching that. Beyond being inappropriate for younger gamers who might happen to watch E3 coverage, it just makes a terrible impression on non-gamers and casuals who'll just read about this from journalists. Gaming might well deserve that impression at this rate, but it sucks for us gamers nonetheless.

Locke cole

06-04-2012, 07:20 PM

And Bows are the weapon of the future.

Whether you're using them in place of shotguns, using a bow-rifle to down helicopters, quickscoping with one, or killing them dirty Redcoats.

Bells

06-04-2012, 07:47 PM

Yeah... tits and nipples sort caught me off guard during the Farcry trailer too. The entire premise seems to be quite trippy. I don't know what they are trying to do with it... kudos for at least seeming like they are trying to make up a interesting plot to their game... but the only thingi can say about it thus far is that it earned more space in my memory than Call of Duty and Medal of Honor.

Solid Snake

06-04-2012, 08:56 PM

Man Sony just eradicated all goodwill I initially felt with its strong start with this long-ass Harry Potter bullshit

Solid Snake

06-04-2012, 09:21 PM

Where was The Last Guardian
wwwhhheeeerrrreeee was it

Ryong

06-04-2012, 09:23 PM

Sony had a single good game, I guess.

People on 4chan have been filling out report cards with how they think the conferences went.

Microsoft: E-, and only because of the South Park joke.
EA: D, because of NFS Most Wanted and Sim City.
Ubisoft: B+, Rayman, Watch Dogs, dang. Far Cry 3 and ZombiU could be nice.
Sony: C+, just because of that final game, The Last of Us.

Solid Snake

06-04-2012, 09:25 PM

I'm looking forward to Beyond, too, but I'm guessing my interest in story over gameplay led me to enjoy Heavy Rain more than most.

Bells

06-04-2012, 09:26 PM

Sony presentation is like a great Chocolate cake with "Nothing Flavored" filling. Awesome start, Great Finishing and a ton of "meh" in the middle.

Also, how did they managed to make a God of War trailer look unimpressive? I mean, i don't even like God of War, but even i accepted that the previous trailers for 2 and 3 were quite Epic and intense... this one... is just Kratos Vs the Elephant Man...

Also, where the hell does the Elephant Man comes from? That's not in Greek Mythology!

And the "Harry potter and the Sacred Gimmick" was a real Blank shot... luckly for them, Last of Us gave it a nice save.

Solid Snake

06-04-2012, 09:31 PM

Ramary

06-04-2012, 09:37 PM

Ubisoft's was all over the place for me. Rayman and Watch Dogs look good, AC3 is alright I guess, but I am sick of the franchise right now so I will not be getting it. Far Cry 3 is Persona 4 on islands apparently. The hosts shall be fed to a tectonic lobster.

Sony's was just....boooorrrriiiiinnggggggggg. Not sold on the Last of Us cause that trailer was scripted as hell, so I am not gonna consider that true gameplay. GOW looked like GOW yet again. Their Smash Bros ripoff is a Smash Bros ripoff. Beyond....don't know enough about it, but Heavy Rain was over hyped as hell so I am cynical about it. That book thing is bad and Sony should feel bad.

Nintendo USUALLY doesn't suck though so I guess there is that.

Kyanbu The Legend

06-04-2012, 09:43 PM

One thing that ticks me off is the whole PSOne classics and Vita thing.

If my PSN account has already purchased FFVII for PS3, do I have to repurchase FFVII for Vita?
...If so, I'm not going to be happy with Sony.

No you won't.

Vita could not play PSone titles because it just wouldn't work well with the PSone emulator sony was using for it. So they launched it without the emulator.

Well they now fixed the problem and Vita will be regaining that function in the coming updates. You DO NOT need to re buy anything. It's just that you can now freely play your PSone titles on the vita without too much trouble.

Solid Snake

06-04-2012, 09:47 PM

Far Cry 3 is Persona 4 on islands apparently.

...waaaaaat

Anyway the most interesting thing for me regarding Sony is how I keep feeling that Sony continually botches their E3s by refusing to acknowledge its exclusive content that actually is legit incredible.

Seriously, Persona 4: Golden and Ni No Kuni are both PS exclusives. Why the hell did we waste so much time on Wonderbook and not see more of those?

I suppose with the Last Guardian the excuse could simply be that the game may no longer be in development (the project may well have been scrapped given its perpetual absences.) But with P4: Golden and Ni No Kuni there's no excuse. Sure, you could argue they're obscure Japanese titles, but Heavy Rain isn't exactly a mainstream American title and their developer still earned a slot in prime time.

It's weird because, there's definitely a reason why I prefer Sony as a console -- it has the best exclusives, at least in my opinion. So why Sony refuses to trumpet its horn and instead wastes time on gimmicks is beyond me. If Sony was just like "Here's a list of all the great exclusive shit we're getting in the next twelve months," that'd be sufficiently impressive to move sales. Instead they sabotage themselves with what appears to be the 'weakest' E3 each time.

Locke cole

06-04-2012, 09:50 PM

Yeah. Dude gets stabbed, trips, wakes up in a bad-trip dream world filled with staticky TVs. Then he shoots dream-world Big Boss Guy, who turns into him at the last second.

"You are me, and I am you."

Kyanbu The Legend

06-04-2012, 09:54 PM

Well they are trying to do something new. I'm pleased that they are giving the Wonder Book a go dispite it being a doomed product. That's good that they are willing to expriement and acutally try to have something that PLaystation can all it's own because I'm sorry but honestly PS3 was pretty damn bland in retrospect. It was just a PS2 with more power and a hub, an overpriced 360 until sony tried to fix that.

Bells

06-04-2012, 09:56 PM

Just a thing though, in the trailer the guy did not turn into the protagonist, he turned into a Girl that also appears in the trailer montage. So i'm guessing it's your Romantic interest since the trippy guy said "Having fun with my sister?" right at the beggining of that part.

Seems like a game where you'll be tripping balls a lot though with all kinds of magical power inducing drugs...

Sony still managed to be the second best thing so far... but yeah, a lot of "We'll sees" and very little "there it is"...

Locke cole

06-04-2012, 10:01 PM

So, apparently, the Farcry multiplayer thing had bows.

The reign continues.

Kyanbu The Legend

06-04-2012, 10:05 PM

What's the Bow count up to now?

Locke cole

06-04-2012, 10:17 PM

Five.

Laura using it to snipe people and forgoing a shotgun in favor of it

Guy from... some shooter using some sort of superfuture laser-bow to destroy helicopters.

Guy from Far Cry quickscoping with a bow before tripping balls.

Connor killing Templar Deer.

Multiplayer Far Cry dudes.

At least one in each conference, so far.

Arcanum

06-04-2012, 11:33 PM

Still catching up with all the crap I missed, but damn The Last of Us looks nice. I was worried it would be a reskinned Uncharted, but it seems like they're pushing the survival theme (which is what I was hoping for).

Aldurin

06-04-2012, 11:41 PM

Valve should have crashed that party and showed off a TF2 update with a hat completely made of bows.

And then updating the Huntsman to be usable as a melee weapon for Demoman.

Far Cry 3 is going to be the game I look forward to the most until something awesomer shows up.

Arcanum

06-04-2012, 11:49 PM

Okay Watch Dogs looks amazing as well.

Everything else is a resounding "meh."

Locke cole

06-04-2012, 11:50 PM

I hope we're not the only people picking up on the bow thing.

Then again, we were probably the only people talking about immortal sea creatures today, so there's something to be said for unique conversations.

Bells

06-05-2012, 01:24 AM

Know what i just noticed? I just saw the Gameplay Demonstration for Starwars 1313 and... it looks really shitty.

I mean, not on the Graphical department, that looks pretty. Which is not something you really get points with anymore when you're working with a Big IP...

But it's just a really bland Corridor Chest-High Wall Duck and Cover shooter... and that's all.

So, how do you make a More Mature and Gritty Starwars game? remove the Jedis, play as a Space Marine. Except you'll be wearing Starwars flight suits and have Rayguns... also the stasis bomb from Dead Space.

I mean, seriously... i don't see a single positive thing about this game aside from "It wooks pwetty"

Malek

06-05-2012, 08:07 AM

I hope we're not the only people picking up on the bow thing.

I saw a few references to bows in the giantbomb chat at least, so unless some of us were posting in that chat, there are others who noticed.

Ryong

06-05-2012, 08:55 AM

Lots of people on 4chan made references to the bows, too.

So, how do you make a More Mature and Gritty Starwars game? remove the Jedis, play as a Space Marine. Except you'll be wearing Starwars flight suits and have Rayguns... also the stasis bomb from Dead Space.

Because gritty space marines aren't enough of a clich� yet right?

Bells

06-05-2012, 10:01 AM

Because gritty space marines aren't enough of a clich� yet right?

that... ahm... is that snark? Cause i was totally doing snark...

ALso, Nintendo Conference in 1 hour people

Ryong

06-05-2012, 11:27 AM

Reggie just won everything.

( "Yes, yes, my body was ready." )

phil_

06-05-2012, 12:35 PM

Ok, well, I actually kinda liked what I saw. But, I'm poorer today than I was in 2006, and they didn't convince me that Wii U will bring about world peace, so yeah.

Edit: I found the bows:

http://i.imgur.com/6SJFP.jpg

Locke cole

06-05-2012, 12:40 PM

BOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW!

The streak continues!

And why didn't they show this during the show? A new IP from Platinum Games? And it looks rad as hell, too.

Mr4D4YZQ9uY

Bells

06-05-2012, 12:50 PM

So what you guys take on the overall Presentations?

Here is the thing for me... yeah, ubisoft came out on top. HOWEVER. They only really need to worry about games. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo have a much broader spectrum to cover... so that matters.

As for the 3 Hardware makers...

Well, Microsoft really hits the crapper this year... nothing interesting. Like, at all... at least for me.

Call of Duty looks like Shit. Everything is Brown and dusty and frenetic focusing more on looking good than being good...

Medal of Honor also looks like shit, everything is Grey and the best part was controlling the drone.

Halo 4 looks, on the very least, underwhelming. I don't like Halo and make no secret of that, but even i enjoyed Halo 3 trailer. That was a great show! But this? It looks outdated on every aspect. Concept, Play, Presentation, Graphics...

The very best thing in it was a 3 second clip with Cortana that shows that she will turn on you during the game and the entire emotional balance of the story will be on the ending of her Relationship with Chief.... there. Spoiler alert.

Everything else was forgetable!

As for Sony, they started really strong... the entire middle section dragged. Ad they finished really strong too. Their Smash Bros clone looks ok (seems slower paced and much more Horizontal than Vertical) Last of Us was scripted, sure. But it certainly looks a lot of fun. The Assassin's creed Bundle and exclusive Vita game were a nice Touch for Vita fans, and the Extra demo for ACIII Sold it home and back. A nice Show..

God of war was trully "Nothing" though... really forgettable showing trying to sell on name alone.

And here comes Nintendo... the more consistent of the 3. Aside from one slow paced segment in the middle, it started Ok and Kept being Ok and it Finsihed Ok. Pikmin 3 and Nintendoland were there... and everything else was 3rd party support from games we already know... there is ZombiU which looks ok... but only time will really tell...

So, for me... it's really hard not to Split a tie Between Sony and Nintendo.... I mean, each played for their strenghts... and seeing the WiiU actually having some Hardcore gaming is fun and really good (Mass Effect 3, Ninja Gaiden...)

phil_

06-05-2012, 12:58 PM

The GamePad also includes motion control (powered by an accelerometer, gyroscope and geomagnetic sensor),�Emphasis mine.

What exactly is that for? Is it another way of telling the controller "Yep, this way is definitely down," or what? Wikipedia isn't being helpful.

Solid Snake

06-05-2012, 12:59 PM

I just can't get very excited about, for example, Mass Effect 3 or Arkham City coming to Wii U.

Think about it. If you own a gaming-quality PC, an X360, or a PS3, and if ME3 would remotely interest you, you've probably already played through the series. Why would you want to spend money to restart the exact same experience on the Wii U?

The only people who should purchase ME3 for Wii U are Nintendo diehards who've simply never owned a non-Nintendo console. Yet it's difficult to imagine many of those individuals would be interested in ME3 over, say, the next Mario or Zelda release.

I'm glad the Wii U is getting third-party support, but it needs third-party support with future releases, not just games that PS3 and X360 owners have already played and beaten. And it needs to try to have such a technological advantage with the Wii U as to discourage developers from releasing comparable X360 and PS3 versions of those games.

Locke cole

06-05-2012, 01:02 PM

It doesn't take a diehard not to have access to the Mass Effect games. I, for one, just have had a bad string of circumstances surrounding my not having Mass Effect.

And now that I remember that Arkham City is coming to the Wii U, I think I'll hold off on playing it on my roommate's PS3.

Ramary

06-05-2012, 01:06 PM

Yeah that is what happened with the Wii when it first launched, it is just the 3rd party publishers doing a cashgrab.

Nintendo's conference was all over the place. Pikmin was awesome, and so was Lego city. New Super Mario Bros is not new anymore stop calling it that. Zombiu looks interesting, and Nintendo land might be cool, but it better be a pack-in game for it to really be the Wii Sports of the WiiU. The bits and pieces of the 3DS we got though is actually convincing me to get one. The slow and awkward bits were not as bad as the other conferences slow and awkward bits,

OVERALL:
Nintendo=Ubisoft>Sony>EA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Microsoft.

Locke cole

06-05-2012, 01:10 PM

Man, I just really want Project P-100.

Platinum still has that spark of genius that Clover had.

Bells

06-05-2012, 01:25 PM

you do realize that Project p-100 is just Pikmin... right?

phil_

06-05-2012, 01:31 PM

Pikmin with more fighting and less bringing stuff back to the ship, yes. And I don't think each individual saved person has unique characteristics like different-colored Pikmin. So, similar in that you gather a horde, different in what that horde is for.

Edit: Actually, let me go back to bows. You know what I was thinking between rounds of one-player sword fighting in Wii Sports Resort? It was, "Man, I wish my friends could come along with me as I bash the heck out of this island full of dudes." And that's what Battle Quest sounds like, except one dude has a bow. Super.

Locke cole

06-05-2012, 01:34 PM

I likened it to Superhero Pikmin, yeah, but there's tons more you can do. I like the cushion jelly and man-sword powers.

It looks like Pikmin + Pok�mon Ranger + M�R with the gonzo superhero style of Viewtiful Joe.

Bells

06-05-2012, 01:40 PM

It seems it has 4 player Coop, which could be quite fun though...

I'm not sold on the WiiU, but Nintendo's press conference surely made me pay a lot more attention to it.

I still need more new content and exclusive stuff though, cause right now, i can pick up a PS3 or Xbox much cheaper and have immediate access to over 5 years of gaming content...

Locke cole

06-05-2012, 01:41 PM

Well, there's Scribblenauts, ZombiU, Lego City (unless that was on another platform?), Pikmin 3, some Mario stuff, and that Nintendoland thing actually looks nice.

Ryong

06-05-2012, 01:56 PM

Dishonored:

Thief + magic.

Doesn't seem too bad, but it's WiiU exclusive.

Would be doing this every single time:

1) Possess elimination target.
2) Throw self from cliff.
3) Possess seagull.
4) Rock out.

Bells

06-05-2012, 01:57 PM

Lego City i'm sure it's coming out for the other platforms too... ZombiU looks ok, but i keep having this weird feeling that it's going to be on rails. Did we get to see ANY footage of people controlling a character in motion?

And, yes... Scribblenauts. I always wanted to play a Scribblenauts game, never had the change... although, now yo useem to be able to make your own stuff?

Ryong: Dishonored is nota WiiU Exclusive... it's on all consoles and PC

Ryong

06-05-2012, 02:00 PM

Lego City i'm sure it's coming out for the other platforms too... ZombiU looks ok, but i keep having this weird feeling that it's going to be on rails. Did we get to see ANY footage of people controlling a character in motion?

It's open-world, you die your last dude can be turned into a zombie and you take control of another survivor and you can get your stuff from your now-zombie last character. Also, you build up your skills, apparently.

Ryong: Dishonored is nota WiiU Exclusive... it's on all consoles and PC

Oh cool.

Locke cole

06-05-2012, 02:03 PM

Probably gonna get the Wii U version of Dishonored.

My target titles:

Project P-100
Pikmin 3
Scribblenauts Unlimited
Lego City
Dishonored
Mass Effect 3 (possibly)
Nintendoland (probably a boxed-in title)

Living Bobbeh

06-05-2012, 02:30 PM

Year of the Bow continues with Game & Wario:
http://e3.nintendo.com/data/games/wiiu/game-wario/0.jpg

Kyanbu The Legend

06-05-2012, 02:33 PM

I wonder if you'll ever be able to use the U-Pad controller as a portable game device.

Would be a pretty neat idea.

phil_

06-05-2012, 05:15 PM

I wonder if you'll ever be able to use the U-Pad controller as a portable game device.

Would be a pretty neat idea.You can play some games on the gamepad screen without a TV. You can't use it to play games totally apart from the Wii U console. You won't be playing Arkham City on the bus.

Kyanbu The Legend

06-05-2012, 05:20 PM

Aw well, maybe some day.

Azisien

06-05-2012, 05:46 PM

So I don't have time to watch the E3 videos or read a 100 post thread.

Briefly, has a single cool thing been announced at all? I heard something about a Watch Dogs game looking cool. I need a Cole's Notes here, dang it.

rpgdemon

06-05-2012, 05:53 PM

Bells

06-05-2012, 06:11 PM

Sup, dawgs. Give me a list of things to check out day 2, and I will do my best journalistic approach of checking them out. I have pretty much checked out everything I was looking to check out, today, so lemme know if you need anything.

Sup Dawg!

Hey, if you get your hands with the WiiU could you check ZombiU? And see if there is anything related to Batman on the WiiU or Mass Effect.

Also, Watch Dogs!

And, is Square Enix even present at the event? Anything from them down there?

AH!! Please check Last of Us if you can, just to see if the stage show was really scripted or if the gameplay actually feels like that. I dunno if they have hands on with the game there though...

So I don't have time to watch the E3 videos or read a 100 post thread.

Briefly, has a single cool thing been announced at all? I heard something about a Watch Dogs game looking cool. I need a Cole's Notes here, dang it.

I made a Thread about Watch Dog, you can get the best info there #InsiderNotInsider

Overall, Microsoft gave a really underwhelming conference. on the Hardware makers side, Nintendo and Sony have a really good close call tie (it varies depending on your personal preferences) and Ubisoft took the stage by storm.

Also, the next in the Indigo Prophecy, Heavy Rain line -> Beyond. Seems a mix of Supernatural ghost Story with Action Movie and Draaaaaaaaaaaama.

And Last of Us looks really cool, but nobody is really sure of how well it plays in reality.

Other than that, Assassin's Creed III is as Badass as people thought it would be.

rpgdemon

06-05-2012, 06:29 PM

Square Enix is mostly pimping Hitman and the new Tomb Raider, but they are there. They've got another KH game, and a bunch of tablet stuff? I'll check it out in more detail tomorrow.

I saw Batman Arkham... Something, at the WiiU area, it might have been Lego batman though. Another thing for me to check tomorrow.

Arcanum

06-05-2012, 07:01 PM

Sup, dawgs. Give me a list of things to check out day 2, and I will do my best journalistic approach of checking them out. I have pretty much checked out everything I was looking to check out, today, so lemme know if you need anything.

Watch Dogs and The Last of Us. Any extra info you can dig up would be greatly appreciated.

Specifically, regarding Watch Dogs, is it a sandbox/open world game? What city is the game set in? (I haven't bothered to thoroughly examine the game's trailers but I'm hoping it's not New York because every game and its mother is set in New York.) What previous games have members of the Watch Dogs team worked on? (Like are these folks that worked on AC titles or other stuff).

As for The Last of Us,

see if the stage show was really scripted or if the gameplay actually feels like that.

Also, can you ask something like "Given how linear and cinematic Uncharted was, will we be seeing the same kind of linearity with The Last of Us? Will the only break from that linearity be in enemy encounters (similar to how Uncharted's areas opened up during gunfights) or will there be a degree of exploration freedom?"

Locke cole

06-05-2012, 07:39 PM

Nintendo announced Pikmin 3, among some other first party stuff. There's a Wii U Scribblenauts game, and for some arcane reason, they didn't put this really awesome superhero-meets-Pikmin-style game from Platinum Games in the conference proper.

phil_

06-05-2012, 08:55 PM

rpgdemon, some dude said there was a Project Diva coming to the US on Vita. Is Hatsune Miku's game actually there?

Arcanum

06-05-2012, 11:47 PM

rpgdemon, some dude said there was a Project Diva coming to the US on Vita. Is Hatsune Miku's game actually there?

This is relevant to your interests. (http://www.joystiq.com/2012/06/05/hatsune-miku-bringing-synthesized-vocal-music-gaming-to-north/)

Regulus Tera

06-06-2012, 12:32 AM

The best part about this E3 is that it made me realise how much I love my fucking DS. I could very well last the entire next generation playing on my DS forever.

Locke cole

06-06-2012, 01:20 AM

Sometimes, I forget just how many freaking DS carts I have. Seriously. A whole freaking lot of them. Have yet to even begin approaching that with 3DS titles.

Solid Snake

06-06-2012, 01:32 AM

Okay, okay, okay.

I'm sorry to pull a Liz...
No, wait.
I'm not sorry.
Everyone should be pulling a Liz over this.

Why the fuck has Square Enix of all companies descended into such completely ludicrous overt racism.

I know I was supposed to just be wowed by the technical prowess of that demo but instead I'm just offended. And really upset that Square now has this poll out (https://form.square-enix.com/a.p/933/) asking people if they want this to be the next Final Fantasy, and if they found the main female character 'sufficiently attractive.'
OH NOES GUYS WHAT IF OUR HEROINE ISN'T PRETTY ENOUGH

They didn't even bother to give the brown-skinned bad guys a unique aesthetic appearance or weapons that actually fit the sci-fi or fantasy genres. They are carbon-copy cutouts of Al Qaeda operatives wielding AK-47s in a world with dragons.

Oh and the heroes? The heroes are all Caucasian.
Of course!

Locke cole

06-06-2012, 01:37 AM

The "heroes" are also performing strange rituals for a demon lord.

I thought the AK guys were our heroes until Hooded Cultist #4 pulled off her hood.

Aside from that, I don't really feel like giving much thought to the thing.

Solid Snake

06-06-2012, 01:41 AM

The "heroes" are also performing strange rituals for a demon lord.

I thought the AK guys were our heroes until Hooded Cultist #4 pulled off her hood.

I think you're inferring far too much into a tech demo that was apparently created simply to sate the desires of Call of Duty fans to show dem brown-skinned terrorists who's boss.

Locke cole

06-06-2012, 01:47 AM

Solid Snake

06-06-2012, 02:05 AM

I'm just saying, if this were a full game, I'd fully expect for Miss Cultist to find out halfway through the game that Agni is evil, and her oh-so-beloved Grandmaster was trying to take over the world or kill all humans or something.

Yeah, you might be right.

...The problem is that what we've just seen was a tech demo for a product that (most likely) will not be released as a full game.

And in the context of this being released as a demo, we shouldn't be asking ourselves "What deeper narrative shenanigans might be going on here?", as there really aren't any. The tech demo is a stand-alone work; we can only judge it based on what we can actually see and what intent Square Enix possessed in showing us what they have shown us.

And even if this was a full game, there's still all kinds of questions like: Why not design a unique or original, fantasy or science fiction aesthetic for the Middle East terrorists lookalikes? Why give them AK-47s instead of fantastical laser guns, lightsabers, or otherworldly weapons? Why cover the faces of the 'terrorist' faction -- essentially dehumanizing them, with stereotypical 'Arabic' garb no less -- while only allowing the 'heroes' (who are all Caucasian) emotional depth in moments that expose their feelings through facial tics?

Like, there are so many creative ways you can just remove the racism outright from the equation. Have both sides, or neither side, appear ethnically Arabic. Simply use the fantastical world setting as an excuse to ditch any ethnic stereotype whatsoever and have people of different races appear. At the very least, have the 'terrorists' appear in genre-appropriate clothing and resist the urge to have them appear to be Call of Duty villain clones.

The fact that Square Enix chose this exact approach, when they didn't have to, in the context of a standalone tech demo, suggests that Square Enix just wanted to get people's blood boiling in anticipation of a new snazzy graphics engine.
And what better way to manipulate the average American videogamer into really diggin' your fictitious two minute storyline than by superimposing a "attractive white heroine VS Osama bin Laden's cronies" element of overt racism?

...In other words, Square Enix faced a problem: How do you really invest the average American E3 visitor into remembering your tech demo when you're trying to tell the tech demo's story in a mere matter of minutes? Square Enix's goal is for the tech demo to make a positive, lasting impression.

One way to do so is with by piggybacking off a storyline everyone's already familiar with. They did just that with the FFVII demo. Everyone loves FFVII, so it's easy enough to create very short material within the context of that world and expect people to intuitively follow along because they're already connected to the characters and the world.

Another way to do so? Base your villains on a character design you know that the audience will intuitively respond with hatred against. You want to evoke an immediate negative response. You want the audience to intuitively like the hero (hence in this case, she's an attractive Caucasian woman who gets to emote) and intuitively dislike the villains (hence in this case, they're fuckin' Arabs in Arabic clothing because fuck dem Arabs.)

The whole tech demo's success therefore hinges on racism. It's piggybacking off of racist stereotypes to tell its story within limited temporal constraints. If the villains had original aesthetic motifs, if you could see their faces and if they had real personalities, you might struggle in a mere few moments to accurately identify them as villains or to become invested in rooting for their defeat. But if they look like Al Qaeda operatives? Fuck, man. The average American already wants them dead! Right?!?!?

Arcanum

06-06-2012, 02:09 AM

I'm with Locke on this one. The entire time I got the impression that the cultists were the bad folks. Actually, my thoughts (nearly) verbatim were "what the fuck is snake talking about, the roles in this trailer are completely reversed from the stereotypical norm."

Also I'm not surprised about the poll and the "is our chick hot enough" option because Squeenix has always been about catering to the nerdboner demographic*.

*this is based off my very limited knowledge of squeenix games and having seen a good share of final fantasy trailers.

Bells

06-06-2012, 02:18 AM

*raises hand* Uhhhn.... what are you guys talking about? I feel like there is a page missing in this thread or something...

Regulus Tera

06-06-2012, 02:25 AM

There are better things to bash Square for regarding that Final Fantasy tech demo than the "racism" or whatever card you are trying to play here. Mainly: the dudebroing going on and the fact that they built and entire new engine for next-gen after they only used the engine they spent years fixing for only three or four games this gen.

Square Enix is an incompetently managed company and you should be glad you will only see the results of that tech demo in 2016 at the earliest.

Bells

06-06-2012, 02:39 AM

And if you want to rage abou Squeenix doing something, well, why not this game they are making for tablets then...? That's probably Rageable

h6QB_bc9MdY

Arcanum

06-06-2012, 02:39 AM

Yeah, you might be right.

...The problem is that what we've just seen was a tech demo for a product that (most likely) will not be released as a full game.

And in the context of this being released as a demo, we shouldn't be asking ourselves "What deeper narrative shenanigans might be going on here?", as there really aren't any.

Proof please. Is it a tech demo? Yeah. Is it just a tech demo? Not in my eyes. They put some interesting bits into the story behind the tech demo for a reason. Either to show off that they can, or to help keep interest in the movie, or maybe some other reason. But I don't think it's fair to say Square didn't put some serious thought into the story behind the tech demo.

And even if this was a full game, there's still all kinds of questions like: Why not design a unique or original, fantasy or science fiction aesthetic for the Middle East terrorists lookalikes? Why give them AK-47s instead of fantastical laser guns, lightsabers, or otherworldly weapons? Why cover the faces of the 'terrorist' faction -- essentially dehumanizing them, with stereotypical 'Arabic' garb no less -- while only allowing the 'heroes' (who are all Caucasian) emotional depth in moments that expose their feelings through facial tics?

So basically you're saying that wearing a turban and rags in a dry, desert slum, while using a weapon that is durable and reliable in that kind of environment, makes you a stereotypical terrorist? I just want to make sure that's what you're saying. Because it seems like your entire argument about this being racist revolves around that.

Also, the non-important cultists had their faces covered too.

"villains" and "heroes"
You're assuming your terms are being applied to the right groups. All we can really divine is that the girl (is her name Agni? Or is that the name of someone/thing else?) is the protagonist.

The way I see it, the folks you are calling "villains" were trying to stop a demonic summoning that was happening in their home. They were even prepared in case it was successful with the direwolf serum, as Locke called it. If you want I can go into more detail as to why they responded with such force with information gleaned from the trailer. Regardless, the people you seem determined to call the villains, I would say are the good guys.

Arcanum

06-06-2012, 02:43 AM

*raises hand* Uhhhn.... what are you guys talking about? I feel like there is a page missing in this thread or something...

Basically Snake was all like "Square is racist, everyone get mad"

And then Locke and I are like "Snake what are you talking about?"

/summary

Bells

06-06-2012, 03:01 AM

Here, have some ZombiU Bullet points

When you make a character, one is randomly generated for you�there is no main character. You give it your playertag, but it gets a name of its own�I say "it," because it can be a man or a woman.
If you die (and you will die), you respawn as a new character.
Each game begins in a central hub, but the world is largely open. You can go anywhere, and objectives that you complete with past characters are still completed.
Best of all, when you die, your past character becomes a zombie, so you can go find them in your next game and kill them and reclaim the gear you got on your last playthrough.
It saves your stats, so you can always tell how long you've lived, for example. There will be an achievement for finishing the game entirely in one life, since of course there will be people who pull that off.
There can only be one of your past-life zombies in the game at a time, but as you play online, your online friends' zombies will also enter your game. You'll see their playertag over their zombies. Ha!
When I played, I had to go get some medicine for a character named Vikram�I almost made it out, but right at the door I finally got killed. My next life, a female character, then hopped right in the door, killed the zombie and the zombified version of my past character, picked up the medicine and was able to finish the mission. That? Is cool as hell.
Now let's talk a bit about the touch-screen, which does a remarkable job of immersing you in the game and making things scarier.

The screen serves as your inventory, as well as your interface for lockpicking, keypad hacking, etc.
The reason this is cool is that when you go into your backpack or loot a body or container, the camera pops out of first-person, and the game keeps going. Therefore you can see if a zombie is coming up behind you as you hack/loot/rummage.
As you play, the screen is a minimap and a motion detector, which lets you pick up zombies relative to your location. Don't think that makes things easier�between the time required to look down and the general unreliability of the minimap (it doesn't give away the great jump-scares), you're still very much in survival-horror mode.
It's remarkable how intense it feels to look down into your inventory and then have to look back up to check your surroundings�it makes rooting around in your backpack during the zombie apocalypse feel like� well, rooting around in your backpack during a zombie apocalypse.
Lockpicking is similar to other games' lockpicking mechanics, and uses the touch-screen and vibration to lock tumblers into place.
There is also a scanner, which lets you scan things in the environment. When you pull out your scanner (using the left shoulder button) the camera goes to third person again and the controller's screen becomes first-person.
You can use the touch-screen to scan bodies, containers, and other things in the environment to tell more about them.
And last, some general things I noticed:

It would appear that every character is guided by the same voice on the other end of the radio�it sounds like there was some sort of outbreak, but that it was planned for. That's why supplies are placed all around.
At one point, things went totally batshit�the power went out, and my scanner and minimap stopped working.
I literally yelled twice from jump-scares. In fairness, I have had a TON of coffee today. But it was a whole lot of fun.
When things went haywire, I was forced to fight a special zombie called "Nurse" in an enclosed area. She could teleport, and would vanish as I shot her before reappearing behind me. It was unnerving, particularly because she wouldn't stop screaming.
Once I killed the nurse, I had to scan her with the controller screen� but she JUMPED THE EFF OUT AT ME THROUGH THE SCREEN and scared the bejesus out of me.

Kyanbu The Legend

06-06-2012, 03:29 AM

Okay, okay, okay.

I'm sorry to pull a Liz...
No, wait.
I'm not sorry.
Everyone should be pulling a Liz over this.

Why the fuck has Square Enix of all companies descended into such completely ludicrous overt racism.

I know I was supposed to just be wowed by the technical prowess of that demo but instead I'm just offended. And really upset that Square now has this poll out (https://form.square-enix.com/a.p/933/) asking people if they want this to be the next Final Fantasy, and if they found the main female character 'sufficiently attractive.'
OH NOES GUYS WHAT IF OUR HEROINE ISN'T PRETTY ENOUGH

Oh SquareEnix, you just can't stop falling can you?

Locke cole

06-06-2012, 08:19 AM

I think "Agni" is the name of the demon thing, by the way.

"Agni" is the name of a Hindu god of Fire (and "Acceptor of sacrifices", apparently). It would explain the massive number of candles in the summoning chamber.

And now I sort of want them to make a full game out of it, because, race argument aside, I'm actually intrigued by the juxtaposition of modern tech and obvious magic on display. You know, spellcasters vs AKs, and syringes full of something that turns attack dogs into transforming dire wolves. The concept has potential, even if it's obvious that "the Grandmaster was evil" would be the Act 2 plot twist that would be combined with him showing up, alive and well, to act as the hopeless boss fight du jour.

phil_

06-06-2012, 08:54 AM

This is relevant to your interests. (http://www.joystiq.com/2012/06/05/hatsune-miku-bringing-synthesized-vocal-music-gaming-to-north/)That is relevant to my interests, in that this is the article I wanted confirmation of. Could just be a fever dream of his, or there could be a "This isn't coming to North America" sign that he overlooked, or he could just be lying. In any case, bringing Project Diva to the states doesn't make any sense, since it relies entirely on Miku's star power to sell, something she has none of outside Japan.

As for Square Enix's tech demo, having not seen it, all I can say is this: Even if SE invoked the "brown people = bad guys, white and delightsome = good guys" visual dynamic in order to subvert it, the fact that someone more than familiar with video games and video game narratives (that means Snake) still saw it as "brown people = bad guys, white and delightsome = good guys" means someone at SE screwed up, regardless of their intentions. Now, whether this is just a failure to succeed at an interesting narrative goal like making the "terrorists" the good guys or if this just stems from ignorance of the realities of racial discrimination is arguable, yeah. But being like "Snake what are you talking about?" is kinda giving SE a pass on their error of playing with "brown people = bad guys, white and delightsome = good guys" and not entirely succeeding in avoiding setting off the same alarms as "Splinter Cell: Sam Fischer Murders His Way Through The Middle East While Screaming 'I'm the good guy!' and Ejaculating Bald Eagles."

Locke cole

06-06-2012, 09:10 AM

I'm not trying to say it with the same tone as Arcanum. My point was that until The Prettiest Cultist took off her hood, I thought that the cultists were the bad guys. That's about it. And I'm still convinced that the Grandmaster was trying to kill all humans or something.

Regulus Tera

06-06-2012, 09:11 AM

And if you want to rage abou Squeenix doing something, well, why not this game they are making for tablets then...? That's probably Rageable

h6QB_bc9MdY
Because Final Fantasy's never ending self-aggrandising and bloatedness cannot be fulfilled on tablets!

phil_

06-06-2012, 09:35 AM

I'm not trying to say it with the same tone as Arcanum.And Arcanum was trying to add some levity to his summary. Still, noted. I'm not saying "If you don't see it as racist, you're racist;" just that, if someone can honestly and informedly see it as racist, that is a failure on the part of the developers, not the audience.

Addressing other things, ZombiU sounds like an awesome zombie game. It will sell less than 1000 copies and will be reviewed as "too hard" and "lacking in story." That Demon's Score thing looks terrible. Terrible and lazy. Maybe SE is making the development staff work for no pay using their own money in-between over-time development work for other games, but that's as charitable as I can get, and it still looks like an ITT Tech commercial.

Ramary

06-06-2012, 10:48 AM

ZombiU looks like a zombie survival-based roguelike which is freaking awesome to me.

I saw some gameplay footage of Persona 4 Arena and that is looking solid.

The 3DS looks buyable for me now.

Annnndddddddddd I am finding nothing else that interests me, real crappy year for E3, but that is because this console cycle refuses to fucking die already.

Locke cole

06-06-2012, 10:50 AM

What about Project P-100? I'm also looking forward to stuff like Tanks! Tanks! Tanks!

Ramary

06-06-2012, 10:57 AM

What about Project P-100? I'm also looking forward to stuff like Tanks! Tanks! Tanks!

EHHHHHHHHHH at both of them really. P-100 is a neat idea, but Platinum Games are a bit hit and miss with their games for me, and it was really too much like Pikmin, and Pikmin 3 stole its thunder for me with its PURRRRRRITY graphics and the fact that I was finally seeing Pikmin 3.

Tanks! looks fun, but in the same mindless way as Earth Defense Force is fun, but is nothing really substantial, but then again this is an early guess.

Locke cole

06-06-2012, 11:23 AM

Eh. I like to say that it's like Pikmin meets Green Lantern, but to be honest, I think the two are quite different. Pikmin's all about managing your troops, keeping them alive, and completing your objectives. P-100 seems to be more about beating up robots, with the gathered team as a fun way to express the power of your little guild.

Ramary

06-06-2012, 11:24 AM

It is enough like pikmin though that P3 overshadows it for me. Also I need more info for it.

Locke cole

06-06-2012, 11:26 AM

Well, here's some gameplay:

V9YjceHWgC8

Ramary

06-06-2012, 11:37 AM

Okay it looks better then I thought , but the camera is sucky right now, it seems to be moving all over the place. I mean beside that it does look awesome, even if it seems just chaotic right now.

Arcanum

06-06-2012, 12:54 PM

As for Square Enix's tech demo, having not seen it, all I can say is this: Even if SE invoked the "brown people = bad guys, white and delightsome = good guys" visual dynamic in order to subvert it, the fact that someone more than familiar with video games and video game narratives (that means Snake) still saw it as "brown people = bad guys, white and delightsome = good guys" means someone at SE screwed up, regardless of their intentions. Now, whether this is just a failure to succeed at an interesting narrative goal like making the "terrorists" the good guys or if this just stems from ignorance of the realities of racial discrimination is arguable, yeah. But being like "Snake what are you talking about?" is kinda giving SE a pass on their error of playing with "brown people = bad guys, white and delightsome = good guys" and not entirely succeeding in avoiding setting off the same alarms as "Splinter Cell: Sam Fischer Murders His Way Through The Middle East While Screaming 'I'm the good guy!' and Ejaculating Bald Eagles."
And Arcanum was trying to add some levity to his summary. Still, noted. I'm not saying "If you don't see it as racist, you're racist;" just that, if someone can honestly and informedly see it as racist, that is a failure on the part of the developers, not the audience.

The problem here is that Snake is determined to call the "stereotypical terrorist-looking" folks the bad guys, even though everything in the trailer indicates that they're the good guys, with the exception of them being opposed to the "main character." And I don't think it's fair to call upon Snake's familiarity with narratives when he completely disregards any significant narrative in the movie by saying

we shouldn't be asking ourselves "What deeper narrative shenanigans might be going on here?", as there really aren't any.

It's like looking at a poem and saying "there's no significant meaning, either narrative or metaphorical, because it's only being used to show off a new rhyme scheme."

But anyway, in other news, apparently this is at E3:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2012/06/advtime.jpg

The real question is: What does it mean?

e2- Also I would just like to ask, is anyone other than Snake calling the movie racist? I've been looking around on various game news/blog sites, sifting through comments, as well as a few creative google searches (though I didn't expect results from that considering how new the movie is) and so far the only person I've seen calling it racist is Snake.

Locke cole

06-06-2012, 01:09 PM

Thing is, though, while I didn't think that initially, I can definitely see the unfortunate implications, after Snake mentioned it.

Anyway, that balloon of Finn and Jake? I'm pretty sure it's for Adventure Time: Hey Ice King? Why'd You Steal Our Garbage? An upcoming 3DS title.

Ryong

06-06-2012, 03:18 PM

Thing is, though, while I didn't think that initially, I can definitely see the unfortunate implications, after Snake mentioned it.

His years of law school are paying off already!

But no, seriously, what do you guys think of New Mario Bros 2 aka Mario Bros Bling Edition? And why the fuck isn't it New Wario Land: Goldquest?

akaSM

06-06-2012, 03:30 PM

New Wario Land: Goldquest?

Yeah, this was the first thing I thought upon seeing that game. WarioWare games aren't bad but, the Wario Land games are pretty nice.

Locke cole

06-06-2012, 03:31 PM

It would be awesome if the main villain was Wario, a la 6 Golden Coins, who wants all of the gold Mario's been producing throughout the game. Or just wants to hoard a bunch of Gold Flowers.

...New Super Mario Bros 2: 6,000,000 Golden Coins?

Solid Snake

06-06-2012, 06:13 PM

The problem here is that Snake is determined to call the "stereotypical terrorist-looking" folks the bad guys, even though everything in the trailer indicates that they're the good guys, with the exception of them being opposed to the "main character."

...Uh, no.

Here are the reasons why it is entirely reasonable for any viewer to come to the conclusion that the stereotypical Middle Easterners are the bad guys:

1: Their faces aren't shown; the faces of two on the opposing faction (both Caucasian) are shown and they are able to emote, which garners sympathy as the woman watches the older man die (I'm assuming he does die there.) You feel no similar sympathy for the masked terrorists because they're masked and their faces are obscured.

2: The main character is an attractive woman -- perhaps the only woman there, for that matter. The trailer is told from her 'perspective' and you're clearly intended to root for her throughout the proceedings. When she is in danger, the mode and tone of the movie shifts in such a manner that the narrative is encouraging you to 'root for her' to escape or 'win.'

3: It's only natural to assume that the main character is the protagonist, because that's the way the vast majority of stories work.

Yes, in the broader context of a full-blown eighty hour videogame there could be some crazy epic twists wherein the protagonist, despite being a good person, learns that the organization she worked for all along was eeevvviiilll, and she was wrong all along, etc.

But this is a tech demo, not the next Final Fantasy. If you're going to assume that there's some deeper narrative that we're simply not going to be (and never will be) privy to at play, you're basically engineering assumptions in order to give Square Enix the benefit of the doubt.

4: Even assuming all my prior criticisms are invalid, you have to concede that it is intellectually lazy and vapid for a fantasy story in the fantasy or science fiction genre to depict the negative Middle Eastern terrorist stereotype without any alteration whatsoever in their clothing or weaponry of choice.

I mean c'mon I can't believe I'm even arguing this. S-Enix could have avoided any of the criticisms I'm bothering to type right now simply by sticking to the fantasy and sci-fi aesthetic exhibited in every other design in the damn tech demo. It almost feels as is as if Square Enix went out of their way to portray that faction as exact carbon copies of Call of Duty bad guys, and it's 100% reasonable to ask why they'd do so.

5: The ending of the video has the girl riding on the dragon in an entirely non-threatening manner; there's no ominous music that hints at the dragon beast bein' all secretly sinister or any other visual cues at that point to indicate that things aren't as they seem.

I mean okay, in summary: It is theoretically possible that in the context of an eighty hour videogame Square Enix would be attempting some smart complex commentary on racial prejudices by presenting a faction that played upon the negative racial stereotypes and then completely subverted them. The tech demo does not accomplish this imaginary vision you're concocting for it. It does not intend to, nor could it, within a mere span of three minutes of viewing time.

The problem is also that you're coming at this from the 'enlightened' perspective of a liberal, decent average NPF 'citizen' who is not racist and who is willing to make all the logical leaps necessary to justify the demo as some ironic story in which the 'terrorists' are actually 'good guys' because you don't have any racist bias against the ideas that Muslims wearing that garb and wielding AK-47s could be heroes.

Now, pretend you're one of the majority of Caucasians in America who's a conservative with traces of institutional racism and a dislike of them damn Muslims boiling in your blood. What assumptions are the average viewers making when watching this tech demo? That's what's important. And that's how Square Enix should be judged.

And I don't think it's fair to call upon Snake's familiarity with narratives when he completely disregards any significant narrative in the movie by saying

Acknowledging the differences in the functional purposes of a 'narrative' in an actual videogame versus a three minute tech demo is not the same as saying "Story isn't important."

Narratives play different roles in different forms of media; a 'story' isn't going to be told the same way in a twenty minute television episode as compared with a two hour long movie or a forty-hour long videogame. A three minute tech demo works under certain temporal restraints regarding the conveyance of its narrative; subsequently, it's more likely to rely on gimmickry or piggyback off commonly held assumptions in order to convey its tale in a limited timeframe.

Acknowledging that is not the same as pretending that narrative does not exist, or that it isn't important.

e2- Also I would just like to ask, is anyone other than Snake calling the movie racist? I've been looking around on various game news/blog sites, sifting through comments, as well as a few creative google searches (though I didn't expect results from that considering how new the movie is) and so far the only person I've seen calling it racist is Snake.

Oh come the fuck on, man.
The popularity of an opinion, or lack thereof, has no bearing whatsoever on its authenticity.
If arguments were popularity contests, Mitt Romney and his Republican cronies could 'win' arguments simply by procuring 50.001% of popular support. That is, of course, not the way this actually works.

But yeah I'm not sure what you're trying to prove there aside from pointing out the very true fact that the majority establishment is very much in favor of the status quo when it comes to racist douchebaggery.

Bells

06-06-2012, 06:46 PM

Snake, try to see it from the Production point of view.

How many faces you saw in that trailer?

Think about it. How many? 3? 4 at most? Everyone else has things covering their faces.

Animating Super detailed and unique faces is hard.

Also, how many faces you saw on scree at the same time? 2 at most, and doing almost nothing... cause that's a lot of processing power (remember.. this is real time.)

So, excuse for thing covering faces... check.

Now, what's with the arab motif? Well... Squeenix is trying to sell to the West. They are trying to be a bit more than "The studio that does Final Fantasy"... they have a few big name games under their belt right now, Tomb Raider for example...

They are essentially telling all the Western developers "Hey, know that stuff you guys keeping doing over and over again? Here... we can do it better. Hire us for your next big title." and Thus... modern warfare look meets fantasy.

But, why the arab guys have to be the bad guys? Well... if that's racist then every american Publishers that are working on a FPS's are Racist as hell... which is not the case. Not really... not in this world of gaming moved by Buzzwords. Not when a game is made based on what will sale first and what the developers want to make second...

All and all, you might've seen racist undertones on Squeenix Demo... all i saw os a Marketing Lure Toss into the pond. They are showing what they do best (fantasy) and what the West is buying (Guns, Middle eastern conflicts) and they are doing it in real time with beautiful graphics.... that's why this was on E3... it's calling out for partnerships who want that technology on their games... and i BET it got a lot of Business cards rolling.

Untactful choices? Perhaps.. but pretty much on par with what is being developed nowadays.

Solid Snake

06-06-2012, 07:12 PM

Now, what's with the arab motif? Well... Squeenix is trying to sell to the West. They are trying to be a bit more than "The studio that does Final Fantasy"... they have a few big name games under their belt right now, Tomb Raider for example...

They are essentially telling all the Western developers "Hey, know that stuff you guys keeping doing over and over again? Here... we can do it better. Hire us for your next big title." and Thus... modern warfare look meets fantasy.

But, why the arab guys have to be the bad guys? Well... if that's racist then every american Publishers that are working on a FPS's are Racist as hell... which is not the case. Not really... not in this world of gaming moved by Buzzwords. Not when a game is made based on what will sale first and what the developers want to make second...

All and all, you might've seen racist undertones on Squeenix Demo... all i saw os a Marketing Lure Toss into the pond. They are showing what they do best (fantasy) and what the West is buying (Guns, Middle eastern conflicts) and they are doing it in real time with beautiful graphics.... that's why this was on E3... it's calling out for partnerships who want that technology on their games... and i BET it got a lot of Business cards rolling.

Untactful choices? Perhaps.. but pretty much on par with what is being developed nowadays.

...

...In the history of godawful fucking justifications for racism I'm pretty sure "They're just being racist because racism sells and by the way they really aren't racist because everyone else is doing it and everyone else can't be racist!" is among the absolute worst.

I mean are you logically dissecting what you're saying here? You said:

* Square Enix is doing the Arab motif because it sells copies. (Ask yourself: Why does it sell?)
* American FPS publishers who consistently rely on portraying Arabic men as bad guys and Caucasians as the heroes are not racist. (Why not? Because 'everyone's doing it?' Because it sells? Why does it sell? Who is purchasing it? Why do American consumers want to see Caucasian heroes and Arabic bad guys?)
* Finally, the fact that Square Enix may ultimately be motivated by profits does not make what they're doing any less racist. An American company that actively discriminates against African American families is not immune from criticism just because their underlying motivation isn't hatred against blacks but making a profit (if, presumably, discrimination in such a manner were to be conceived of as 'profitable.')

I mean uuuuggggghhhhh how can you possibly be defending institutional racism with such flimsy logic as "It's not racist if the racism is just a byproduct of racism's financial popularity!"

Loyal

06-06-2012, 07:18 PM

I'm not gonna get into the rest of this because I don't feel like spending the rest of my night scrutinizing a threefour minute trailer for a subtextual thesis on racism and how it affects the video game market of today. I certainly don't care to get involved in an argument where the opening volley is "pulling a Liz" (Real smooth there, by the way, very classy on all counts.). But I do have to say two things. First:
Oh come the fuck on, man.
The popularity of an opinion, or lack thereof, has no bearing whatsoever on its authenticity.
If arguments were popularity contests, Mitt Romney and his Republican cronies could 'win' arguments simply by procuring 50.001% of popular support. That is, of course, not the way this actually works.

But yeah I'm not sure what you're trying to prove there aside from pointing out the very true fact that the majority establishment is very much in favor of the status quo when it comes to racist douchebaggery.While the popularity of an opinion is not an indication of its validity, neither is its existence. Your opinion is not granted merit merely because you had it.

When there's almost nobody but yourself drawing a particular conclusion from what you watched, it's important to consider the possibility that you simply looked into it wrong, that you saw a minor detail that correlated to one thing and then proceeded to blow it out of proportion for the sake of a point. Similar to this situation (http://i2.lulzimg.com/dac1a29106.png), in which the alleged canned applause turned out to actually be slightly awkward game audio.

And second:4: Even assuming all my prior criticisms are invalid, you have to concede that it is intellectually lazy and vapid for a fantasy story in the fantasy or science fiction genre to depict the negative Middle Eastern terrorist stereotype without any alteration whatsoever in their clothing or weaponry of choice.

I mean c'mon I can't believe I'm even arguing this. S-Enix could have avoided any of the criticisms I'm bothering to type right now simply by sticking to the fantasy and sci-fi aesthetic exhibited in every other design in the damn tech demo. It almost feels as is as if Square Enix went out of their way to portray that faction as exact carbon copies of Call of Duty bad guys, and it's 100% reasonable to ask why they'd do so.Whether this is true or not, that the racist depiction was nothing more than an unfortunate accident of someone just not realizing what they were doing, an entirely fair possibility, as Squeenix does not exactly have a reputation as a paragon of cultural sensitivity, it's entirely separate from your original argument, and it's rather dishonest to expect anyone to "concede" anything as it actually relates to your original argument.

Solid Snake

06-06-2012, 07:37 PM

I certainly don't care to get involved in an argument where the opening volley is "pulling a Liz" (Real smooth there, by the way, very classy on all counts.).

I suspect if Liz knew I referred to "criticizing instances of clear-cut racism" as "pulling a Liz," she'd be honored.

When there's almost nobody but yourself drawing a particular conclusion from what you watched, it's important to consider the possibility that you simply looked into it wrong, that you saw a minor detail that correlated to one thing and then proceeded to blow it out of proportion for the sake of a point.

If it makes you feel any better I do believe that I'm far from the only person who feels this way about the trailer.
And do you seriously believe the reliance on Middle Eastern Arabics with certain aesthetic designs in games like Call of Duty haven't been called out over the past several years as incredibly racist? Because Bells certainly seems to feel that way.

And second:Whether this is true or not, that the racist depiction was nothing more than an unfortunate accident of someone just not realizing what they were doing

...Why are you assuming that the racist depiction "was nothing more than an unfortunate accident?"
And even if the depiction was an unfortunate accident, you seem to be forgetting the fact that the accidental nature of said racism ***wouldn't make the racist portrayal any less racist.***

If you subconsciously write a story in which all the villains are historically oppressed ethnic minorities who all fit certain negative stereotypes, guess what, it is still an objectively racist work whether you 'intended' it to be or not.

Also, on a related note, it seems rather insulting in and of itself to attempt the "but Square Enix is Japanese, they may not understand racism over there" argument as a defense, as if there's something innate in Japanese culture that either justifies oppression or somehow makes the Japanese less capable than their western counterparts of doing the necessary research to confirm the existence of racism or the necessary steps to combat it. I'm pretty sure that Square Enix is fully aware of the reason why its main protagonists in this video (and in many other works) are disproportionately Caucasian and why the antagonistic forces are walking ethnic stereotypes.

Bells

06-06-2012, 07:37 PM

I mean uuuuggggghhhhh how can you possibly be defending institutional racism with such flimsy logic as "It's not racist if the racism is just a byproduct of racism's financial popularity!"

That's because i'm not, and it isn't.

Please understand this: Squarenix is not a subsidiary of the KKK. They are not a "Racist Company".

Personally i don't believe someone can be "Racist by accident" you are either a person with a racial bias, or someone who did a stupid comment without noticing.

You trying to correlate that the entirety of the company Squareenix has a Racist tendency based on this tech demo is reeeaaly over reaching. Everybody else looking at it as a perfectly normal tech demo that might have some "out of tune" choices. more akin to bad decision making on the marketing side of thins, than actual racial profiling... is better connected to common sense.

Seriously, you are reading paragraphs between lines here.

Solid Snake

06-06-2012, 07:51 PM

]
Please understand this: Squarenix is not a subsidiary of the KKK. They are not a "Racist Company".

Where do you get the impression that I am accusing Square Enix of being the KKK or being "Racist Company?"

I am accusing Square Enix's tech demo of being racist.
Because the tech demo is racist!

I have never said that the entirety of Square Enix has a "racist tendency." What I actually said is that I highly doubt the people at Square Enix who developed the tech demo were completely oblivious to the reasons why their protagonist was Caucasian and why the antagonistic force fit Middle Eastern ethnic stereotypes. The fact that 'racism is profitable' insofar as a lot of Caucasians in America right now are enjoying FPSes in which their clean-cut Caucasian heroes slaughter evil Arab is not a permissible justification for Square Enix to indulge in said racism.

At this point you are the one who's reading far too much between the lines of what I'm typing that isn't actually there. Because there's a huge difference between calling out a company for creating something that is racist and saying that they are the fucking KKK. And attempting to dismiss my arguments by pretending I'm saying something extreme that I'm not is ludicrous.

Arcanum

06-06-2012, 08:03 PM

I'm not going to bother touching on everything, because I'm quickly loosing interest in this argument.

Also, just going to say this outright at the start of my post: Pretty much all of my arguments are my reasons for why I think this isn't "clear-cut racism" as you put it. I'm not trying to defend Squeenix, though I can understand it looks like that, I'm just saying why I think you're blowing this out of proportion.

...Uh, no.

Here are the reasons why it is entirely reasonable for any viewer to come to the conclusion that the stereotypical Middle Easterners are the bad guys:

1: Their faces aren't shown; the faces of two on the opposing faction (both Caucasian) are shown and they are able to emote, which garners sympathy as the woman watches the older man die (I'm assuming he does die there.) You feel no similar sympathy for the masked terrorists because they're masked and their faces are obscured.

So you're saying that you feel no sympathy for these people forced to live in a desert slum even though there's a pristine city within driving distance? Also, what Bells said. Also, what I said before about the cultists having their faces covered.

3: It's only natural to assume that the main character is the protagonist, because that's the way the vast majority of stories work.
Protagonist
1.the leading character, hero, or heroine of a drama or other literary work.

Main Character and Protagonist are basically synonymous, so I don't see what you're getting at with this point.

Yes, in the broader context of a full-blown eighty hour videogame there could be some crazy epic twists wherein the protagonist, despite being a good person, learns that the organization she worked for all along was eeevvviiilll, and she was wrong all along, etc.

But this is a tech demo, not the next Final Fantasy. If you're going to assume that there's some deeper narrative that we're simply not going to be (and never will be) privy to at play, you're basically engineering assumptions in order to give Square Enix the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe this is just my last semester of studying poetry (it was godawful, but mandatory for my program) making me read into the trailer this much, but I can easily see a deeper narrative at play. I'm not saying Squeenix designed it like that, but the bits and pieces are there to flesh out this world beyond all the action. If you want I can do a full analysis of the movie later.

5: The ending of the video has the girl riding on the dragon in an entirely non-threatening manner; there's no ominous music that hints at the dragon beast bein' all secretly sinister or any other visual cues at that point to indicate that things aren't as they seem.

From the guys chant:

"Hear me mighty servants." "... rain down destruction."

The thing is a thrall. It was summoned to do the bidding of whoever wields that crystal. The old dude wanted to destroy the "wicked" who "threaten the communion between worlds."

What the girl wanted, at least at that moment, was to get out of there alive.

The monster in itself isn't evil, it's a tool, what matters is the old dude's intentions which he made clear in his chant.

Acknowledging the differences in the functional purposes of a 'narrative' in an actual videogame versus a three minute tech demo is not the same as saying "Story isn't important."

Narratives play different roles in different forms of media; a 'story' isn't going to be told the same way in a twenty minute television episode as compared with a two hour long movie or a forty-hour long videogame. A three minute tech demo works under certain temporal restraints regarding the conveyance of its narrative; subsequently, it's more likely to rely on gimmickry or piggyback off commonly held assumptions in order to convey its tale in a limited timeframe.

Acknowledging that is not the same as pretending that narrative does not exist, or that it isn't important.

So basically:

It's like looking at a poem and saying "there's no significant meaning, either narrative or metaphorical, because it's only being used to show off a new rhyme scheme."

You are saying "It's a tech demo, so it doesn't have any meaningful story" despite plenty of evidence in the tech demo itself that meaningful story is present.

Oh come the fuck on, man.
The popularity of an opinion, or lack thereof, has no bearing whatsoever on its authenticity.
If arguments were popularity contests, Mitt Romney and his Republican cronies could 'win' arguments simply by procuring 50.001% of popular support. That is, of course, not the way this actually works.

That bit was just me wondering if this was a big thing raging across the internet, or just something you picked up on. It wasn't an attack or anything, just curiosity about how widespread this idea/argument is.

And finally, odds are I won't be continuing this argument, at least not in this thread, because I feel we've clogged up enough of the E3 thread already. If you want to keep this going, shoot me a PM, or hell even make a thread called "Squeenix is Racist" or something and I'll drop in there.

01d55

06-06-2012, 08:15 PM

Please understand this: Squarenix is not a subsidiary of the KKK. They are not a "Racist Company".

Personally i don't believe someone can be "Racist by accident" you are either a person with a racial bias, or someone who did a stupid comment without noticing.
And here we find the heart of the bullshit:
"It's only racist if you feel racist; so long as your heart is untainted by resentment towards black people you are not a racist and nothing you do could possibly be racist!"

Racism is not about the racist's feelings, it is about the privileges of certain ethnicities over others. It's about the extra burdens that anyone who isn't white in America or Japanese in Japan (And yes, non-white foreigners get extra shit over the foreigner shit white people do. Look into Koreans in Japan.) has to carry. As of 2009, white people are privileged to be represented by 80% of all characters in popular video games, and that is petty compared to disparate treatment when it comes to treatment from the police or getting hired for a job.

When seeking a job, a white convict has it easier than an african-american with a clean record. That didn't happen because the KKK has a whole lot of subsidiaries that aren't hiring any black people, it happens because racism is a social atmosphere, and pervasive, unstated biases in media are the self-propagation vector of that atmosphere.

The Square Enix video presents the stereotypical as turbaned middle-eastern gunmen threatening white people, and this is exactly as racist as all the western produced media which does the same. Such media is caused by and excuses the pathological inability of the United States government to acknowledge with the fact that far more aggression flows from the USG to non-white nations than they are remotely capable of returning. That's racist.

Ryong

06-06-2012, 08:21 PM

Goddamnit Snake why can't you make a post like that?

Solid Snake

06-06-2012, 08:43 PM

Goddamnit Snake why can't you make a post like that?

...Because apparently my three years of legal training have failed me insofar as Numbers is better at this shit than I am?

Now to question the last decade of my life THANKS RYONG :(

EDIT: Hey Mods can you guys bring back Neg-rep
I totally need to give Ryong negative rep for making me question my chosen vocation
Also perhaps my very existence

POS Industries

06-06-2012, 09:04 PM

"...and then the pretty white girl flew away from the towelheaded jihadists on her dragon back to her advanced, civilized white people city filled with magic and technology!"

It's like if Stormfront created a Mary Sue.

Locke cole

06-06-2012, 09:12 PM

Did you know that the Esper Crusader was originally called "Jihad"?

POS Industries

06-06-2012, 09:16 PM

Did you know that Crusader was originally called "Jihad"?
I did.

Which was pretty fucking terrible when you take into account that it was basically the suicide bomb of summons.

Locke cole

06-06-2012, 09:25 PM

With an attack called Purifier/Cleansing.

I mean, good lord. I'm not a fan of censoring, but I think NOA did well to rein that one in.

Ryong

06-06-2012, 09:53 PM

...Because apparently my three years of legal training have failed me insofar as Numbers is better at this shit than I am?

Now to question the last decade of my life THANKS RYONG :(

EDIT: Hey Mods can you guys bring back Neg-rep
I totally need to give Ryong negative rep for making me question my chosen vocation
Also perhaps my very existence

You can say things in just a few words and people will understand.

Amazing, isn't it?

Solid Snake

06-06-2012, 09:58 PM

You can say things in just a few words and people will understand.

Amazing, isn't it?

IMPOSSIBLE

Fenris

06-06-2012, 10:02 PM

IMPOSSIBLE

See, I totally understand what you're saying here.

Krylo

06-06-2012, 10:05 PM

It's like if Stormfront created a Mary Sue.

Not blonde enough.

POS Industries

06-06-2012, 10:07 PM

Not blonde enough.
When she completes her quest and masters the purest form of white magic, her hair will turn blonde and her eyes blue to signify her transformation into a perfect being.

Locke cole

06-06-2012, 10:14 PM

And then she'll learn a spell to become three times as perfect, causing her hair to grow to the ground.

Solid Snake

06-07-2012, 02:57 AM

PERSONA 4 SPOILERS AHEAD

Uuuugggghhhh

Persona 4 Arena stuff:

1: Easy stuff first. The game takes place a little more than a year after the ending of Persona 4. Yu returns to Inaba visit his old pals. Shit hits the fan. The Midnight Channel is still around.

2: Johnny Yong Bosch voices the English version of Yu, which leads to the rather hysterical consequence that his voice vaguely reminds you of Adachi. I'd like to speculate that maybe Arena takes place in an alternate universe where Adachi possessed Yu's mind or some shit after losing that battle.

3: When asked about the facts that Yu is actually named Yu in Arena, and that Yu actually has full lines of dialogue, Atlus conceded that Arena is more inspired by the anime and less by the actual original game. Uuuuugggggghhhhhhh

4: My uuuuggggghhhhh is further exacerbated by the fact that Shadow Kanji is literally like the one shadow character who returns and plays a significant role in the storyline, haunting Kanji. Did I mention that this Shadow Kanji will be more inspired by the anime than the game? Uuuuuggggghhhhh.

5: Chie and Akihiko have a rivalry thing going on. That's pretty cool.

6: Infinitely less cool is the fact that Chie and Teddie's English Voice Actors have been replaced in both P4: Arena and P4: Golden. The entirety of P4's original dialogue that's still in P4: Golden has been rerecorded for those characters, in fact.

Why were the voice actors replaced? Nobody knows! Apparently Dave Wittenberg joined a union or something after voicing Persona 4? Or, no, wait, it says he "only takes union jobs" now. (P4 voice acting isn't a union job?)

As for Chie, the general impression from folks appears to be that Atlus may have been looking for an excuse to recast her because they're dissatisfied with her voice and wanted something that sounded younger and more akin to Yui Horie's Japanese performance? It's hard to imagine the original VA would be unavailable or expensive because she doesn't exactly have a busy resume. Erin Fitzgerald, her replacement, has done a lot more lately.

I am going to miss the crap out of Chie's voice, that's all I'm going to say on the matter.

The rest of the main names for the P4 cast is back for Arena, and Bosch will be playing Adachi in Golden, but no word yet on the P3 cast members in Arena, and no word yet on the P4: Golden cast members who aren't in P4: Arena, which is basically the entire supporting cast. They probably got most the cast back, but there's still going to be some disconnect.

7: Fortunately, as something of a brazen confession that the new English VAs won't be up to snuff, Atlus is including the option of Japanese subs in both P4: Arena and P4: Golden. The entire Japanese cast from the original game (and the anime) remained intact.

All in all, everything I've heard so far is...disappointing. Not just the VA stuff, either, which I'd probably get used to eventually. (But Chie was totally my P4 waifu, baaaaah.)

The story of Arena seems hackneyed and trite, which I'd typically expect from a fighting game but not one developed by Atlus' Persona team. The Midnight Channel returns! Shadow Kanji returns! Random new character threatenin' shit! Taking inspiration from the anime of all sources isn't the best of signs either. I fully expect the Shadow Kanji scenes to completely negate all of Kanji's character development in the best Persona 4 path and revert to everyone hating Shadow Kanji because Shadow Kanji is gay and KILL IT WITH FIRE. Worse still, the story might end with Kanji triumphantly declaring that he's confronted his 'feminine' side and having dealt with those issues he's now totally heterosexual like any normal man should be, y'all.

As for Golden, the new innovations are mostly features I have no interest in: Motorbikes to travel around in! You can do stuff at the shopping center every day now! New ultimate Personas for every character, because the old ultimate Personas weren't ultimate enough! More of the Social Link scenes are now fully voice acted! A new character in the Velvet Room to seduce or something! A quiz show! You can grow a garden!

The two most exciting developments from a story perspective are a new Halloween event a new Ski Trip event; the ski trip actually takes place in January, presumably after the events of the main game, True Ending notwithstanding.

Among the things I wish they'd have changed that apparently won't change include:

* There's still no mechanism in the dating format that actually incorporates any semblance of punishment whatsoever if you attempt to go all playa and try to date multiple women at once, therefore continuing the trend that the women have no independent agency and are simply reduced to objects that the main character can seduce, cuz you gotta collect them all or some shit;

* There's no gay relationship option between Yu and either Yosuke or Kanji;

* There's no female version of Yu you can play is like in P3P. And overall, the game just seems to add less in terms of depth or variety in new story content than what P3P added to Persona 3. There's far fewer new social links (in P3P, the female main character introduced many new social links), and the changes just don't impact the main story in as meaningful a way.

In P3 and P3: FES, for example, you were forced to have the game end with the main character dying in Aigis' arms; in P3P, you can actually change that depending on your choices and experience a unique ending with whoever your character loves. I suppose P4 might introduce similar new content that we just haven't heard about yet, but everything I've heard so far makes it sound less ambitious and more focused on minor gameplay tweaks and new minigames than offering major new story content.

Ryong

06-07-2012, 11:38 AM

Man aside from the Shadow Kanji thing this is just nitpicking. You forget that in P3P it also got rid of walking outside of Tartarus, Fusion Spells and letting the Protagonist use any kind of weapon.

Yrcrazypa

06-07-2012, 04:26 PM

Now, I haven't read all seventeen pages, but aside from CS:GO, what impressive looking games have been shown at E3 that are on the PC? Not having a console seems to leave me highly out of the loop.

Solid Snake

06-07-2012, 04:28 PM

Well, Watch Dogs was running on PC hardware and I'm reasonably certain it will be released for every major console, either this gen or next gen, including the PC.

Ramary

06-07-2012, 05:42 PM

Now, I haven't read all seventeen pages, but aside from CS:GO, what impressive looking games have been shown at E3 that are on the PC? Not having a console seems to leave me highly out of the loop.

Everything that was "graphicly impressive" were done on the PC. Think Watch Dogs, Star Wars 1313, Far Cry 3 etc all the demos were from PC builds. So there is that I guess.

Locke cole

06-07-2012, 06:20 PM

Bells

06-07-2012, 06:25 PM

Well... y'know... Potter Fans with kids are going to buy.

Solid Snake

06-07-2012, 06:29 PM

Okay, get this. Apparently, Sony has 25 Vita games at E3, and couldn't fit them into their presentation (http://www.gamesradar.com/sony-actually-has-25-new-vita-games-forgot-to-mention-them/). Apparently, they just couldn't find any room to squeeze them in.

But that book peripheral gets all the time it needs.

It's intriguing that Sony mentions this but don't bother listing any of those 25 games.

But really I'm just bitter because new Chie VA has, in one fell swoop, killed my interest in purchasing a Vita.
...I wish I were kidding. Even typing that sounded ridiculous but it doesn't change the fact that it's true.

Kyanbu The Legend

06-07-2012, 06:29 PM

Okay, get this. Apparently, Sony has 25 Vita games at E3, and couldn't fit them into their presentation (http://www.gamesradar.com/sony-actually-has-25-new-vita-games-forgot-to-mention-them/). Apparently, they just couldn't find any room to squeeze them in.

But that book peripheral gets all the time it needs.

You also have to remember that this is 25 games we're talking about.

The most they could fit by shortening the Wonder book presentation would be 3 maybe 4 at best unless they just list the names. And they were on the sow floor anyway so why does it even matter at this point?

Solid Snake

06-07-2012, 06:31 PM

You also have to remember that this is 25 games we're talking about.

A two-minute montage that just listed the titles and showed gameplay footage would have been enough.

Yrcrazypa

06-07-2012, 06:36 PM

Everything that was "graphicly impressive" were done on the PC. Think Watch Dogs, Star Wars 1313, Far Cry 3 etc all the demos were from PC builds. So there is that I guess.

Ah, I suppose I shouldn't have said impressive. I more meant games that look like a lot of fun. Though having a few more names to look into helps.

Bells

06-07-2012, 06:45 PM

There is a "Vibe" going on that game developers seems to be developing games on PC that just kick the edge of console processing in the butt as a way to tell the console makers "you guys need to up your hardware, look what we can do now..."

truth be told, a 2012 current PC Gaming Rig, outweighs any Xbox or PS3... costs more than both combine too...

So, it seems it's PC Development with console porting now on all big big titles untill Microsoft and Sony develop something new... which should be happening in 2-3 years tops.

Kyanbu The Legend

06-07-2012, 06:54 PM

Well reguardless I wouldn't call this a major fail on Sony's part seeing as no matter what they do we already know that this gen is most likely the last gen for Handheld consoles. From the looks of the rather low sales on both Vita and 3DS as well as the growing interests with Smart Phone/iPhone gaming and the phones getting close to/out specing both 3DS and eventually the Vita itself.

I predict they and maybe even Nintendo may end up developing Gaming Phones next gen. Heck Sony's already doing just that with the Xperia.

EDIT: Custom Gaming Consoles guys, it will change everything for the gaming industry and give consoles a fighting chance. (something they barely have as is now)

Locke cole

06-07-2012, 07:30 PM

It's intriguing that Sony mentions this but don't bother listing any of those 25 games.

Well, presumably he didn't list them because he didn't really need to at this point. The conference is over and they're out on the showfloor, so people can just go and see them.

Ryong

06-07-2012, 07:57 PM

I'm going to assume Ragnarok Odyssey was one of the vita games.

It'd certainly make sense for them not to point it out, since ragnarok + monster hunter-esque is like, all kinds of niche right?

Bells

06-07-2012, 08:34 PM

Just Hypothesis... but maybe they have figured out that the Vita Market is in the East, so they are holding out for TGS, where even new PSP titles are being launched, while the West gets more "Console Centric".

Although, of course, doesn't help to CHANGE that if you don't show the games on the portable you are trying to sell during E3....

EDIT:

Kotaku and Amazon are with us

http://kotaku.com/5916764/amazon-knows-what-this-years-e3-was-all-about-bows-and-helicopters

Kyanbu The Legend

06-07-2012, 08:40 PM

Oh wow so we weren't the only ones thinking that. lol

Bells

06-07-2012, 08:50 PM

Doc ock rokc

06-07-2012, 09:20 PM

So... this is interesting. A Gamespot writer made an Editorial criticizing Medal of Honor Warfighter, and one of the producers took offense to it... so... they decided to sit down and chat, in front of the camera...

Now, take a look...

http://e3.gamespot.com/video/6381457/a-matter-of-authenticity

Guh. That reporter just pissed me off. The Developer is a DEVELOPER he and his associates are following Game theory! They are paying respect to troops but they are also trying to entertain a mass audience with many different preferences while following a well established formula. Just because it isn't 100 percent accurate doesn't mean its disrespectful. Fuck I mean Where the hell were was the reporter looking when Call of Duty or Battlefield was running around?

Ryong

06-07-2012, 09:28 PM

The thing is that if you go on about realism or authenticity - which means the same - then you make the darn thing realistic, getting shot fucks you up. That's the only problem I see there.

Yumil

06-07-2012, 09:44 PM

The thing is that if you go on about realism or authenticity - which means the same - then you make the darn thing realistic, getting shot fucks you up. That's the only problem I see there.

Authenticity doesn't not necessarily mean realistic. An authentic representation only reproduces the essentials, which in what they have deemed essential does not include "getting shot fucks you up." Heck, theres a certain authenticity to American Civil War reenactments and they certainly as hell don't kill each other. The art form dictates what is necessary, and it would be unfun to the masses for an entertainment piece with consequences such as that. A niche might like it, but I can still see it being authentic without it.

Solid Snake

06-08-2012, 03:07 AM

...It takes a lot to make me agree with a modern FPS Call of Duty knockoff developer, but...well, I agree with the FPS Call of Duty knockoff developer.

Sifright

06-08-2012, 03:24 AM

I think the most telling thing is that Tom mcshea biggest complaint is that the game shouldn't be fun because war.

Yes thats right when I sit down I really just want to play something depressing and completely unfun. He really thinks that games shouldn't be fun? :|

edit: finished watching the whole thing. God damn that reporter is a moron. thats not to say military shooters aren't generally terrible they are but his complaints are seriously stupid.

Solid Snake

06-08-2012, 03:34 AM

Yes thats right when I sit down I really just want to play something depressing and completely unfun. He really thinks that games shouldn't be fun? :|

Well, to piggyback off that, the problem with making an FPS that 'isn't fun' and that portrays war 'realistically' is that you won't actually engage the gamer long enough to actually get to the 'war is hell' story beats and cutscenes.

...I think that's why the developer spent so much time focusing on the 'stories' of the soldiers that he wanted the game to tell.
Taking it one step further, it just seems to me like: Regenerating health isn't realistic, but if the gameplay mechanics serve to convey a story that does address the brutality of war, it's better to ensure the gamer can be sufficiently engaged to be moved by the story.

...And, if you really want the hyper-realistic challenge and the genuine feeling that you're on a battlefield, Hardcore Mode would apparently be available to provide that sensation.

Take, for example, Metal Gear Solid. In MGS you eat goddamn rations and immediately restore lost health. You can get shot dozens of times and Snake isn't bothered.
But despite the unrealistic nature of the gameplay, the theme of the game is still very much centered upon how much war sucks. The end of MGS3 probably had as strong an 'anti-war' impact on me as any movie I've watched or book I've read. The casual mechanics may not be 'realistic,' but it allows as many gamers as possible to experience an Anti-War story.

My guess is that Medal of Honor's story isn't nearly as 'Anti-War' as Metal Gear's. Just a hunch, but I'm guessing it does follow the Call of Duty template of pretending war is fun and peachy keen. From that perspective, the journalist here is actually caught up in the wrong argument -- he should be engaging the developer on the probability that the storyline glorifies war, not so much on the issue that bullets don't instantaneously kill.

Doc ock rokc

06-08-2012, 04:12 AM

Well, to piggyback off that, the problem with making an FPS that 'isn't fun' and that portrays war 'realistically' is that you won't actually engage the gamer long enough to actually get to the 'war is hell' story beats and cutscenes.

...I think that's why the developer spent so much time focusing on the 'stories' of the soldiers that he wanted the game to tell.
Taking it one step further, it just seems to me like: Regenerating health isn't realistic, but if the gameplay mechanics serve to convey a story that does address the brutality of war, it's better to ensure the gamer can be sufficiently engaged to be moved by the story.

...And, if you really want the hyper-realistic challenge and the genuine feeling that you're on a battlefield, Hardcore Mode would apparently be available to provide that sensation.

Take, for example, Metal Gear Solid. In MGS you eat goddamn rations and immediately restore lost health. You can get shot dozens of times and Snake isn't bothered.
But despite the unrealistic nature of the gameplay, the theme of the game is still very much centered upon how much war sucks. The end of MGS3 probably had as strong an 'anti-war' impact on me as any movie I've watched or book I've read. The casual mechanics may not be 'realistic,' but it allows as many gamers as possible to experience an Anti-War story.

My guess is that Medal of Honor's story isn't nearly as 'Anti-War' as Metal Gear's. Just a hunch, but I'm guessing it does follow the Call of Duty template of pretending war is fun and peachy keen. From that perspective, the journalist here is actually caught up in the wrong argument -- he should be engaging the developer on the probability that the storyline glorifies war, not so much on the issue that bullets don't instantaneously kill.

The fact of the matter is that he isn't complaining about single player. HE IS COMPLAINING ABOUT MULTIPLAYER. the only example in E3 the developers had was their multiplayer. which brings about the Regen health and unrealistic movement that is typical of a first person shooter. which arguably doesn't have anything to do with the story and does make war out to be fun...However the devolopers NEED TO FUCKING MAKE MONEY SOMEWHERE! :mad:

yeah its sad that there isn't a hyper realistic multiplayer war game where a single bullet can kill you (usually slowly) and you only have one life per whatever the fuck the fucking reporter wants. but then again I can't name people that would want to play a game that way. Games are like movies, They are ENTERTAINMENT. and yeah they are unrealistic as fuck.