HELP ME: I am actually enjoying FFXIII

[Solid Snake]

Note that there is no "-2" at the end of the aforementioned statement.

...For the hell of it, I decided to start FFXIII during a study break today.
* Technically, I actually played through the first two chapters of the story when I first procured my PS3 in 2010, but I had virtually no memory of that experience aside from being confused as fuck because I didn't understand what was going on. And then I started playing Uncharted and quickly forgot that FFXIII even existed. So when I decided to pick it back up today I chose to start from the beginning.

I am actually enjoying this experience.
Mind you, FFXIII is by no means a great game. It is linear as fuck corridor hopping. But the graphics are delightful, the music is solid, and perhaps most surprisingly, I'm actually growing to care about the characters, to a far greater extent than I cared about the cast most Square Enix games released in the past decade.
Seriously during one of the Snow / Serah flashbacks it actually occurred to me that Snow and Serah might be the best written romance in Final Fantasy. Not that Squall and Rinoa could give them much competition, but that was still surprising.

...Everyone except Hope. Hope's still fucking annoying.

I've been practically raised by the internet to hate FFXIII before I even gave it a fair shake. And now that I'm actually giving the game a fair shake, I'm enjoying it! No, it's not the best RPG I've played this year, or even the best RPG I've played in the past two months (Tales of Graces wins that award), but the script is decent for a Final Fantasy, the graphics and character models are gorgeous, the baby chocobo is the cutest thing in the known universe, I really like at least three of the playable characters, and the linear corridor thing, while annoying, really doesn't strike me as that much different than the formula of pretty pre-rendered graphical backgrounds and linear activities utilized in the Uncharted series, which every pundit universally lauds.

It's better than FFXII, that's for sure.
...And now everyone on the internet wants to kill me.

THIS TOPIC IS NOW ABOUT: Games conventional wisdom on the interwebs says you're supposed to hate, that you actually secretly really kind of like.
Also I'm starting Chapter 6 of FFXIII right now, so let's keep spoilers contained in those spoiler boxes.

Another extremely controversial opinion of mine: I actually enjoyed L.A. Noire more than Red Dead Redemption.
*runs*
...In that case it was less about the objective quality of either title and more about my eternal love for the Film Noir genre, jazz, and the 1940s.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Man I looked it up in the DSM but I can't find "likining FF13" as a symptom. So you shouuld be in the clear.

[Solid Snake]

Wait how did this thread that I posted in the vidjagames section end up here

[Fenris]

Wait how did this thread that I posted in the vidjagames section end up here

by you posting it in media consumption

moved

[Ryong]

It's better than FFXII, that's for sure.
...And now everyone on the internet wants to kill me.

What the shit? No, seriously, explain yourself.

[Flarecobra]

That is not a bad thing. I enjoyed FF13.

Though Hope wasn't the one who grated me, it was Vanille.

[Azisien]

There is no help for you. Game basically put me off the FF series permanently.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

Man, I have a lot of unpopular opinions when it comes to games. Mostly I just dislike a lot of the stuff everyone and their mothers makes a big deal of. Particularly games that are nice to look at but boring as fuck to play. Which includes basically every "cinematic" game ever. Unless there is one that also has actually good gameplay I'm not aware of. One would think with machines as powerful as modern consoles and computers they'd finally start to not just use all that power just for the graphics.

I wanna play games, not movies :(

Oh wait, I actually liked MGS2!!! More than MGS3!! Haha, yeah, I DO have something to contribute after all.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

I liked FF13 too. It's not the end of the world Snake. It just takes 2 or 3 chapters to figure out what the hell is going on (if you don't read the glossary). I actually prefered 13 over 12, which just pissed me off no end. FFX is still the best though, in fact I just got that back from a friend, I might try getting back into it.

As for the topic, I'm not sure what games I'm "supposed" to hate, but I do know what games I dislike that a majority of people seem to really enjoy, if that counts?

[Locke cole]

In terms of games the Internet says you should hate: I really did enjoy Sonic Heroes and Shadow The Hedgehog. The former was just a lot of fun, and fast-paced. My only complaints wer how hard the special stages were. The latter... well, I didn't like it as much as previous games, but I didn't think it was bad. Besides, who can fault a game where you can shoot Omochao's severed head out of a cannon?

[Ryong]

I actually prefered 13 over 12,

whyyyyyyyy

[Solid Snake]

I actually prefered 13 over 12

So do I!

At least FFXIII has characters you actually care about. All FFXII had was Balthier and a bunch of no-name cardboard cutouts.

I actually really like the narrative utility of the flashback sequences, they're quite cleverly done.
Also, I don't dislike Vanille as much as probably should, perhaps because there are moments where her enthusiasm vaguely reminds me of Pinkie Pie's. Hope, on the other hand, drives me to insanity with all his bitching and moaning. Perhaps if he had actually emoted upon the death of his mother I'd understand, but as is it's just weird to hear Hope groan his way through things and plot Snow's demise when he otherwise barely seems affected by the loss of his mother. Hopefully that changes?

[Ryong]

At least FFXIII has characters you actually care about. All FFXII had was Balthier and a bunch of no-name

Basch and Ashe were awesome.

Also?


Also, I don't dislike Vanille as much as probably should, perhaps because there are moments where her enthusiasm vaguely reminds me of Pinkie Pie's.

Goddamnit I saw this one coming a fucking mile away.

[Krylo]

I actually enjoyed FFXIII as well, but man, FFXII is still way better. Didn't mind Hope, either, 'cause in so much as he's kind of annoying he's annoying in the way that a kid his age should be annoying, all hatin' his dad and being dumb and hero worshippin' the 'coolest' party member and shit.

Also:

Seriously during one of the Snow / Serah flashbacks it actually occurred to me that Snow and Serah might be the best written romance in Final Fantasy. Not that Squall and Rinoa could give them much competition, but that was still surprising.[/SIZE]

Man, I don't know if it's well written or not, all I know is that Serah looks super underage and Snow looks like he's like 28ish, and it gives me the creeps like a motherfucker every time anything about their romance goes on.

Like, if memory serves, they're both mid-twenties, but they made Snow look way older and Serah look way younger and it's like arrrrrgh. If they had just made them both look their age it would probably be alright, but I just can't get into a romance that looks like a 28 year old dude pining on about a 13 year old.

Also: she totally orgasms all over her summon. Seriously, watch her animations on it. She's riding that giant gun spider thing and enjoying the fuck outta herself. Literally.

[IHateMakingNames]

If FFXIII let you control your party during battles it would have been a much better game. I still enjoyed it, but I almost didn't finish because by the end I couldn't stand doing any random battle. FFXIII had by far the worst battle system.

Every FF should play like FFX-2.

I was unaware that the general internet consensus was that FFXIII is bad. I thought the internet liked the game, or at worst thought it was average.

[Revising Ocelot]

I thought the internet liked the game, or at worst thought it was average.

Anything but. Or, depending on the website, anything butt.

[Yrcrazypa]

FFX being the Final Fantasy game that put me off of the rest of the series seems to be a pretty unpopular opinion. As for games that most people seemed to dislike that I enjoyed, Red Alert 3 would be one of them, off the top of my head. The gameplay wasn't all that bad, and the FMVs were all hilariously cheesy.

[tacticslion]

FFX being the Final Fantasy game that put me off of the rest of the series seems to be a pretty unpopular opinion.

I'm not sure why this would be true. FFX had a terrible level-up system, lousy and unrewarding minigames, and characters too irritating to be believed (Titus). And FFX-2 had a great combat system and leveling processes (and the various classes are always a plus) but took what characterization I liked about the first and said, "Meh, I'mma hate all over this stuff." while simultaneously making things even less sensible than the first... which was kind of hard to do.

Then again, I actually liked FF8, at least up until the part (near the very end) where it suddenly dropped all semblance of sense what with the hidden city and you all grew up in the same orphanage but had forgotten it (although that was slightly justified in-story) and then had to go to the end of time and... collapse time... which was just what the villain wanted to do. I don't even know.

Or FF7 in which, despite being a fun game, made you play as an annoying emo-laden (even more than Squall!) wannabe jerk of a protagonist who literally went insane and forgot that he wasn't his best friend. And also is a jerk (unlike his best friend, whom he was imitating... poorly). And also also is a creep (unlike his best friend, whom he was imitating... poorly). And also also also betrays and abets in the murder of his supposed love (which is actually the love of his best friend). Cloud's only redeeming quality seems to be that he doesn't die when he really should (kind of similar to a cockroach) and that he wields a really freakin' huge sword.

Doesn't mean I don't like those games. I can just see where people are coming from that don't. And FF8 and FF10 have both received their share of hate. And I've not played anything since FF10 either (though I hear I need to correct that with FF12 and am personally willing to try FF13, though I dread it). Which is really what I was trying to say all along.

(Also, I've yet to play FF9 - a tragedy by all accounts.)

[Locke cole]

Okay, I have to adress the whole "Emo Cloud" thing. He doesn't get mopey until after he gets mind controlled into dooming the planet, falls into the planet's core, and goes comatose. Heck, we had people like Setzer or Cecil moping around for much less. Well, slightly less, in Cecil's case.

And after he stops being comatose, he stops being a gung-ho "fuck you" soldier or emo until the end of the game.

It isn't until Advent Children that he gets really mopey, and that's because he's dying of magic cancer. Unfortunately, Advent Children seems to be what Dissidia and Kingdom Hearts wanted to draw from.

And I think I can forgive him for being kind of insane at the start of the game. After all, he really should have just died from that level of poison and mad science.

[tacticslion]

Okay, I have to adress the whole "Emo Cloud" thing. He doesn't get mopey until after he gets mind controlled into dooming the planet, falls into the planet's core, and goes comatose. Heck, we had people like Setzer or Cecil moping around for much less. Well, slightly less, in Cecil's case.

And after he stops being comatose, he stops being a gung-ho "fuck you" soldier or emo until the end of the game.

It isn't until Advent Children that he gets really mopey, and that's because he's dying of magic cancer. Unfortunately, Advent Children seems to be what Dissidia and Kingdom Hearts wanted to draw from.

And I think I can forgive him for being kind of insane at the start of the game. After all, he really should have just died from that level of poison and mad science.

Hey, I'm not saying that it's a bad game, nor that the characters are all bad. Heck, I kind of even like Cloud despite his flaws (much like the game and FF8).

What I'm saying is:
* Cloud was a braggart and a failure
* Cloud couldn't face his actual childhood sweetheart and own up to being the above
* Cloud instead hid in a delusion away from reality while being afraid (this is when/where he got emo/mopey in "real time", and just kept it up from there)
* Cloud didn't die when Seph stabbed him (redeeming feature number one!)
* Cloud underwent radical proceedures in which he becomes, effectively a vegetable
* Meanwhile the much more mentally stable, honest, good, genuine hero, Zack, keeps them both alive, stays sane, isn't a vegetable, and was a success when Cloud failed (the Soldier program), and underwent the exact same things. Also he wasn't a jerk or emo. Ever.
* Zack breaks the two experiments free.
* Zack breaks all the way out of the prison-town
* Zack gets them safely almost all the way to civilization, failing only when he was faced with superior numbers, more powerful weapons, advanced soldiers, and a completely terrible/inferior position, dieing nobly rather than seeing his friend suffer
* Cloud vaguely comes out of his stupor, finds his friend's dead body, then proceeds to put on his dead friends' clothes (simultaneously taking and wield the super-sized sword - redeeming feature number two!), and immediately proceeds to forget he wasn't the dead guy who he just stole stuff off of.
* Cloud never again wonders about his past, except to act far too cool and insightful while having a nervous/mental breakdown.
* Because of Cloud's many, many, many failures, his super-sensitive mission is botched, some of his new friends (and a good portion of a city) die, and in the middle of this he cold-shoulders the woman he'd loved since forever and tries to hook up with a girl he'd seen his best friend love via picture once.
* The next time the world is riding on his shoulders, he fails to protect the girl he claims to love, fails to keep himself from Sephiroth's control (delivering the doomsday device into his waiting hands), and fails to protect a town from destruction.
* He remains stupid and emo until after the girl who's never stopped loving him rescues him, heals him, and tells him to stop being stupid
* From then on he just wields a freakin' huge sword and doesn't die when he's supposed to (i.e. uses his only two redeeming features) in order to slay super-monsters
* The last thing is him destroying Sephie super-easy for no good or believable reason
* We are then led to believe he fails to get the ship to safety
* Which doesn't matter because we are then led to believe most of the earth dies 'cause the villain's plan kind of works

Now, in Advent Children (which I purchased even though the subtitles were terrible 'cause I was a huge fan, even after FF8 and the awful Final Fantasy Movie*), we learned that the majority of the world did not, in fact, die when the Meteor struck. But we had no way to know for sure before this. And we do know that all that shiny new construction seen in AC goes roughly nowhere, 'cause we've seen what the city looks like in a hundred years, and it isn't "rebuilt" (unless you count wild kudzu foliage tearing down your abandoned wire-frame buildings as "rebuilt"). And in it, our hero, who ostensibly learned his lesson[s] in FF7, the game (the lesson[s] being, "don't be a whiny loner, work with your friends, and don't harm the ones you love by being a jerk") has proceeded to forget all of them and become a whiny loner and a jerk who doesn't work with his friends and actively avoids talking to the woman who has never stopped loving him just so he can chase some dream of a woman who only loved him for his passing resemblance to a better hero. The worst part is that I'm not even exaggerating. He literally is chasing a literal dream of a woman who's primary interest in him was that he vaguely resembled her ex (who he had been imitating poorly). Of course this is all "resolved" by the end of it, through means that make no sense whatsoever, but hey, by that point they'd released FF8 and were on some sort of "let's pull a Deus-Ex-Happy Ending Out-of-Nowhere" kick.**

And, yeah, the Kingdom Hearts games only loosely adapt some parts of the characters of the games for vague semblance purposes.

That said, I don't hate Cloud. He's a doofus, yeah, but I don't hate him.

No, of the protagonists, I only hate Tidus. Which is a shame, 'cause I really didn't want to.

Oh, and, yeah, Cecil was kind of emo, a bit, but really he learned that he was an alien, he wasn't human, the baron he'd served for so long was corrupt and evil, and he murdered an entire village (on accident), and his best friend betrayed him (twice), and he lost his love (more than once), failed to protect a little girl multiple times by being outmatched by effective-gods, and participated in the genocide of two kingdoms (on accident). Guy wasn't so much emo as just stupidly unlucky and unfortunately aware of it. He got to fly a giant whale, though, so that's something, I guess. But yeah, not my favorite.

And Setzer was nothing like "The Protagonist" of the very ensemble FF6 (much as he might consider himself such). If anything, Terra, your self-titular Locke Cole, Celes, and Sabin would share the title of protagonist, though all of the heroes could have done so (they were the only ones to either have solitary or mostly-solitary portions of the game, or go through the entire adventure). Shadow, Setzer, and the rest were awesome, though.

* But dang, did that bad, bad, terrible film look good!
** I have to say, the other animation (featuring Zack) was pretty daggum awsome and made me like Zack even more than I did before, despite its tenuous (at best) connection to continuity, which really isn't a good thing, when I'm comparing the "actual" protagonist disfavorably to him already. What I'm saying is that the bonus cartoon was better than the movie.

[PyrosNine]

Yeah, Cloud was pretty broken from the get go, only most people had their player-protagonist blinders on....JUST AS FF7 PLANNED. FF6? The main character being amnesiac, with a dark and troubled past tied directly to the big omnicidal big bad? Pretty clear from the get go. FF7? Oh hey, my character's hearing voices....probably nothing important.

Cloud was pretty boss for a main regardless of his inevitable breakdown, and actually spent much of the game in an up-beat, go-get-em attitude- whenever he was doing something that wasn't Sephiroth or END OF THE WORLD related, you'll notice he'd drop the SOLDIER First Class facade and do some really goofy stuff, and while the player thinks "Oh, he's just gonna do this stuff because I made him", even Advent Children and Dirge make a point of showing that no, Cloud is a snarky goofball. He's not Mister Super-Positive like Zack was, but you can see that the two got along really well.

We're talking about the guy who told the Tutorial guys to shut up and let HIM tell them how the game works- and when he meets their ghosts and they ask him why he's using materia if materia is killing the planet...he gives a weak, "Uh...we need to use our materia to make them stop using materia..." and hastily tries to shove the question under the rug. Who, while the earth is under attack from Weapons, or Sephiroth is getting away by the second....goes and rides Chocobos from dawn to dusk at Golden Saucer. Who, when considering a 'date' for the Golden Saucer, is likely to pick Barret just to mess with him.

Cloud's just Emo in KH because he hasn't killed Sephiroth yet, who probably killed Zack, and anyone who kills KH Zack cannot be forgiven. He still snarks out Squall, who is the master of snark within his own game.

I haven't gotten a chance to play 13 yet (mainly because I don't own an Xbox/PS3) and I haven't beaten 5, 6, 8, and 9 yet, but the story of 13 actually hit me pretty hard, and it wasn't just because of the Leona Lewis Trailer. (My hands.....uhhooaah...no they will not let me go...)

In FFX, Just before the climax of the game, then and only then do you learn that Yuna's going to bite the big one at the end of her quest. And it's sad, and it's part of theme of the cycle of death, touching moment.

IN FFXIII, From the get go you learn that someone you love is going to suffer a fate worse than death at the whims of an all powerful creature, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it- and struggling against it only leads you down the exact same path. There is no hope, there is no divine agent sent to make everything better, nor any old wise man who shows up to tell you how to save your loved ones. There's nothing but futility and despair ahead of you, and an impossible task that will wreck you whether you accomplish it or not.

And you learn this all from the very beginning of the game!

In most games, you're just watching these happy go lucky characters suddenly get assaulted by a dark secret or truth popping up out of nowhere, they get emo, and then get better when the time calls for it. In 13, the truth pops up at the very beginning, and all there is to do is watch them SQUIRM.

And despite this teetering between the weakening resolve to continue and the growing despair, we see some really strong characterization and emotionally deep reactions. Characters crowning moments of awesome are not that they show up in the nick of time to hit Golbez with Meteor, but that they are capable of powerfully rising above the flood of emotional turmoil and do what they believe is right. Sugar and Rainbows indeed!

I don't know about 13-2's plot, sounds like a bunch of timey-wimey BS, but any FF with a -2 is usually just about the fanservice, so I can let it slide. Either way, 13 advanced the FF series by focusing on presenting a deep emotional story, just like 12 did the same with unparalleled customization and complex, layered political narrative.

As long as it's not just FF 1-12 in shiny new paint, and I can see the same amount of love and attention to detail that's in arguably every final fantasy game (except 14, although that's purely from a coding and game design standpoint, not a visual or sound one) I will find something to love in any and all Final Fantasies, and be more than willing to play them.

...When I get caught up.

[tacticslion]

As long as it's not just FF 1-12 in shiny new paint, and I can see the same amount of love and attention to detail that's in arguably every final fantasy game (except 14, although that's purely from a coding and game design standpoint, not a visual or sound one) I will find something to love in any and all Final Fantasies, and be more than willing to play them.

...When I get caught up.

Which is pretty much how I feel. I just really need to play nine, twelve, and thirteen.

I've also never even actually seen 14, just heard about how terrible an idea it was.

[Krylo]

Is some of that stuff in Dirge of Cerberus or something?

'Cause it's left pretty unclear in FF7 who the other experiment is, and is heavily implied that Zack was killed/bitch slapped by Sephiroth before Cloud stopped him. Also it's never shown that Cloud and Zack were BFFs. Further, when Cloud finds out that Sephiroth is mind fucking does he have a break down at almost giving the dude the black Materia? Does he freak out that every other Sephiroth clone has no free will and he's probably not much better?

Fuck no.

He straight up says "Yo all I got problems, don't let me have this shit. Now I'm going to go punch Sephiroth right in the goddamn face and keep on punching until he stops moving."

Also: Terra was emo as fuck with her "what is love? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVmbhYKDKfU)" schtick, and the whole "I CAN'T DO ANYTHING BECAUSE OH GOD I HAVE SUPER POWERS WHAT."

Locke more so with his dead girlfriend that he kept in his basement.

Celes actually tried to commit suicide.

And okay, yeah Sabin was pretty boss. (http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnz9siBi2x1qizbpto1_1280.gif)

Cloud is, objectively, the least emo FF Protag.

. . .Other than Sabin (but Sabin as protag is actually a pretty weak argument, it's totally Terra for the first half and Celes for the second).

. . .Until Advent Children (and apparently other media) decided to rewrite him for whatever ridiculous reason.

[Ryong]

Crisis Core has Cloud just be a random country dude, just like Zack. Granted, I never finished it, but I can't remember him being emo there.

I liked Zidane who, upon being told what he actually is, has a breakdown and then 10 minutes later decides that he's chill forever.

[Dracorion]

Hey Kry? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=759rsUwVTDI)

That being said, yeah, there's not much in the original game to show Cloud and Zack being great friends.

However, everyone should just pretty much ignore all the FF7 EU on the basis of sucking, except maybe for Crisis Core.

[Krylo]

Hey Kry? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=759rsUwVTDI)
I don't remember that scene in the original PS1 game. PC game was released over a year later.



Edit: Like 99% sure it wasn't in there, 'cause I don't remember Zack coming out first or anything like that. There's way too much to that scene that I don't remember for it to just be my memory.

Edit 2: Basically what I'm getting out of this is that Square has gone out of their way, starting about a year after the original game released, to make Cloud terrible compared to his original depiction.

[Krylo]

Ah found out what was going on.

It was an entirely optional scene that requires you to go back to the Shinra Mansion near the end of the game. Kinda like finding out about Lucrecia and what not with Vincent required you to jump through a bunch of hoops.

Fact remains that during the escape, however, Cloud was recovering from getting run through, picking up the sword and guy connected to it, WHILE IT IS IN HIM, and then shaking it vigorously to throw said guy and sword off a bridge, running to save his childhood friend, and carrying her to safety all before he passed out, while Zack is recovering from a bitch slap.

Makes sense Zack could move and Cloud couldn't.

Also, Zack only went through half of what Cloud did, having already been accepted into Soldier and thus already having the Mako infusions. Cloud needed both Mako infusions and Jenova cell injections. Zack only needed the injections.

[Dracorion]

Yeah, I'm not arguing that Cloud was a pussy. His only failing was not making it into SOLDIER in the first time, but other than that he did pretty well for himself.

If you want to argue that he accomplished very little throughout the events of the game, then we'll probably have to compare him to every other FF protagonists and see how they fared. The answer is, not well. In fact, I think it's Tidus and Vaan, the most hated two protagonists, that managed to fuck up the least.

And yeah, Cloud wasn't very emo in the original game, either. Like, I think most of his dialogue options were choices between being nice or being a dick. And even the dick ones weren't like with Squall, who would've just said "... whatever" and launch into an angsty inner monologue. Cloud at least uses more words and doesn't have inner monologues.

[Krylo]

Yeah, I'm not arguing that Cloud was a pussy.

Yeah but Tactics basically was.

[Dracorion]

Okay, so it only took Square a year to start fucking up Cloud.

[MSperoni]

All the hate FF13 got gave me such low-expectations that when I finally played it I didn't think it was all that bad. I first rented it as a joke because I wanted to get a chuckle out of how horrible it allegedly was, but it surprised me, and I don't think it deserves the hate it gets. I'm not much of a jRPG person either. I think it's a very pretty game and I like the music and the battles. I'm iffy about the characters, but I really like Lightning and Fang. However I haven't finished it, so I may not feel this positive by the time I'm at the end. It's been awhile since I played it, so I might need to start over if I want to beat it (not so much because I lost my place in the story, but because I can't remember how combat works).

I dunno if I'll shoot for 100% of the trophies, but if it's fun and doable without a lot of needless frustration (and some games are dicks when it comes to their trophies/achievements) I might.

I liked FF12 too. I didn't get very far into it though. Like with FF13 I got interrupted and lost my place in the game and haven't picked it back up since.

[Steel Shadow]

Final Fantasy's a popular series, of course it gets hugely divided opinions on every game. 13 got it pretty bad, since it was incredibly linear (I still loved it), but every single one has the love/hate fans.

It's been awhile since I played it, so I might need to start over if I want to beat it (not so much because I lost my place in the story, but because I can't remember how combat works).

You press A.

[Aldurin]

Playing through FFXIII for me was more like a trip of constipation, the pacing was far too slow for my liking, and I disagreed with some of the upgrades (the badass combo moves you can get for each character higher up should totally do more damage than they did.) Squeenix did try hard enough in other aspects to make me not put down the game, but after my final string of "What the fuck?"s at the end, I just lost the will to replay it.

You press A.

This is pretty much how the game was for me. Push the analog stick, press X (PS3 graphiks 4eva!!!! :P), and panic run whenever something that looks tough runs at you.

[tacticslion]

Yeah but Tactics basically was.

No. Stupid? Yes.

There is a very serious discrepency between those two things.

I even argued that his primary attributes were 1) not dying, and 2) wielding a huge sword. That is the opposite of what you are suggesting I was claiming.

His only failing was not making it into SOLDIER in the first time, but other than that he did pretty well for himself.

Nnnnnnnnope again. He had tremendous friends who helped him succeed where he continually failed when he tried to take it alone or pretend to be all super-cool and awesome and putting them all in serious danger because he was dumb and uncommunicative about important things. That was a super-valuable lesson he was supposed to have learned in FF7 that he insta-forgot in Advent Children (also adding the all-black outfit in Advent was not a good touch).

But doing well for himself? Not really.

Worth noting: I've never played Dirge of Cerberus or those other related games. I had kind of forgotten they existed as part of canon.

If you want to argue that he accomplished very little throughout the events of the game, then we'll probably have to compare him to every other FF protagonists and see how they fared. The answer is, not well. In fact, I think it's Tidus and Vaan, the most hated two protagonists, that managed to fuck up the least. I can't speak for Vaan, but I have to admit Tidus did about the most successfully of any protagonist that started to do anything, except maybe for Cecil (who literally traveled the whole planet above and below and into space, and saved them all) or maybe Butz (or Bartz, depending on your translator) the savior of one-or-two worlds (depending on your view)*.

And yeah, Cloud wasn't very emo in the original game, either. Like, I think most of his dialogue options were choices between being nice or being a dick. And even the dick ones weren't like with Squall, who would've just said "... whatever" and launch into an angsty inner monologue. Cloud at least uses more words and doesn't have inner monologues.

Cloud's and Squall's emo-ness were very different, but both present. And perhaps (and it is, in fact, likely) I'm using "Emo" incorrectly. I just mean that both were kind of jerks who generally acted "cool" and "superior" and didn't talk to anyone about the really important things because they were too "lone-wolfish" to do so.

I mean both main games starting mercenaries with memory problems due to magical whatevers, dressing in dark colors, wielding blades of unlikely size with a direct antagonist with lighter hair than they and generally "too cool" for anyone else in a future-esque "fantasci" setting kind of invites comparisons. Especially when they don't talk about important things that they should really talk about with their friends and allies.

Only one of them actually succeeded at most of the things he set out to do (though that still doesn't make either the "better" protagonist), but they're pretty similar in a number of ways, at least compared to the other FF protagonists.

Again, despite my list of his failures, I don't hate Cloud. He's enjoyable. And he's lighter, in many ways, than Squall (at least 'til AC and the extended his more melancholic properties), I'll totally grant that. He is not, however, a great hero by any means.

* I think technically that Mystic Quest guy who I can't be bothered to recall the name of did "the most" as he was supposed to have saved all time-space, or something, I don't know, but I'm only counting the numbered sets.

[Dracorion]

Okay, my memories of the game post-Temple of the Ancients are a little murky, but I'm not sure where Cloud ever attempts to do anything alone, and the only ones I remember being dumb and uncommunicative are Aeris and Tifa at times.

Like, I guess he does dismiss it every time he flips out because he's crazy.

[tacticslion]

Okay, my memories of the game post-Temple of the Ancients are a little murky, but I'm not sure where Cloud ever attempts to do anything alone, and the only ones I remember being dumb and uncommunicative are Aeris and Tifa at times.

Like, I guess he does dismiss it every time he flips out because he's crazy.

Buh?!

Their dialogue was basically:

Aeris: hey, this guy reminds me of my ex-boyfriend who I lost contact with. He seems nice enough. Welp, let me dump the short version of my life's story. Also, now that it's relevant, here's all the important things.

Tifa: Hey, remember me? No? Not even a little? That promise we made forever ago that I never forgot? No? Um... okay, I guess it's not important*. But I'll totally risk life and limb to help you help some other girl, since you don't like me. But feel free to talk to me! I'll also try to remind you from time to time.

Cloud (to himself): I'm having mental breakdowns in the middle of life-or-death situations. I may put myself and everyone else I know and love (or at least like) at serious risk and get us all killed. I'm certainly not going to tell anyone!
Cloud (to everyone else): I'm fine, shut up. Let's go fight machine guns with swords and set up bombs to explode.

Also, at the beginning of the game...
Cloud: I'll handle this delicate bomb thing by myself. 'Cause I'm so mentally sane and stable.

If you still think they're being the stupid ones, that's fine. I'm not going to continue my derailing of this on FF7 (sorry, Snake). Or FF6, as much as I'd like to (Kryyyyyyyyyyyloooooooooo! *Shakes fist!* :D)

* Hey, I mean, is that uncommunicative? Sure, I guess, but when you've loved someone since you were little kids and remembered promises made so long ago, and they don't seem to remember you at all, it's kind of soul-crushing. Dumb, it isn't. As soon as she realized it was because of actual problems he was having (not because he'd moved on) she worked on helping him get through it. Rinse and repeat with Advent Children.

[Solid Snake]

Man, what's up with all the Cloud hate?

Like I just randomly showed up here after a few more hours of FFXIII gameplay and was going to talk FFXIII, but then tacticslion completely derailed my train of thought by goin' off on a Cloud-sucks binge.

EDIT: Time to bring 2010 Snake (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1004156&postcount=46) into the fray. (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1004192&postcount=51)

I could copy-paste the arguments to give the true illusion of a Snakepost, complete with Walls, but, ehhhh, I'd rather just go back to playing FFXIII. Which is still surprisingly not bad!
...Aside from Hope. Hope still annoys me. Stop trying to kill Snow, Hope!

[Dracorion]

Okay, your Aeris point is fair. Still, she did run off alone to get killed, but that's nitpicking.

As for Tifa, I don't think Cloud acted like he didn't recognize her at all. At the beginning of the game, they both quite clearly recognize each other, even if Cloud's being a dick acting like a mercenary who doesn't give a shit.

No, her problem was that she knew damn well Cloud was mistaken when he was narrating the Nibelheim flashback, and kept quiet about it during the whole goddamn game.

Cloud's and Squall's emo-ness were very different, but both present. And perhaps (and it is, in fact, likely) I'm using "Emo" incorrectly. I just mean that both were kind of jerks who generally acted "cool" and "superior" and didn't talk to anyone about the really important things because they were too "lone-wolfish" to do so.

The person Cloud could've talked about those things with is Tifa, who was both jealous of Aeris and wanted Cloud to keep remembering things wrong to protecting him or something.

The only time I think she almost fesses up is during the optional date with her (she could either be trying to confess her love or admit to everything, up to player interpretation). Cloud can approach her in Gongaga and try to discuss the past and Tifa pretends everything's fine and change the subject.

Also, Squall never even tries to be cool. He's just a jerk.

But yes, Cloud is very attached to the flawed idea he has of Zack and the perfect SOLDIER and mercenary. What can I say? He's crazy.

EDIT: Snake? Snake?! Snaaaaaaaaaaaaakeeee!!!! :argh:

[tacticslion]

Okay, your Aeris point is fair. Still, she did run off alone to get killed, but that's nitpicking. That's FF damsels in general! (Also, I think I recall reading that she was hated by the lead story-writer, or something, forced to be a more "normal" love interest rather than the beer-swilling, hard-knuckled, kind-hearted Tifa. Or something, it's been a while.)

As for Tifa, I don't think Cloud acted like he didn't recognize her at all. At the beginning of the game, they both quite clearly recognize each other, even if Cloud's being a dick acting like a mercenary who doesn't give a shit.

No, her problem was that she knew damn well Cloud was mistaken when he was narrating the Nibelheim flashback, and kept quiet about it during the whole goddamn game.

Okay, I have to grant you Tifa. I'm probably remembering it wrong, but I really recall thinking at the time that Cloud was a jerk and dumb as a brick for not getting the fact that she was head-over-heels since childhood, which he apparently didn't remember.

The person Cloud could've talked about those things with is Tifa, who was both jealous of Aeris and wanted Cloud to keep remembering things wrong to protecting him or something. See the thing is, she never really seemed (to me) to be acting like a jealous girlfriend. She always seemed all, "Okay, well, my heart is broken, but let's help his be okay, then."

The only time I think she almost fesses up is during the optional date with her (she could either be trying to confess her love or admit to everything, up to player interpretation). Cloud can approach her in Gongaga and try to discuss the past and Tifa pretends everything's fine and change the subject. Again, I'm going to point to the signs of a broken heart. By that point he's made it pretty clear that he's uninterested and she's not trying to fight for him. But I think here we're just reading the characters differently.

Also, Squall never even tries to be cool. He's just a jerk.... this, again, is us reading the character differently. Both Cloud and Squall act the way they do because they think that it's the way they're supposed to act. Both have a very flawed idea of what it means to be the perfect soldier and mercenary.

But yes, Cloud is very attached to the flawed idea he has of Zack and the perfect SOLDIER and mercenary. What can I say? He's crazy. Totally agreed!

Man, what's up with all the Cloud hate?
Ahem.
Again, despite my list of his failures, I don't hate Cloud. He's enjoyable. And he's lighter, in many ways, than Squall (at least 'til AC and the extended his more melancholic properties), I'll totally grant that. He is not, however, a great hero by any means.

Like I just randomly showed up here after a few more hours of FFXIII gameplay and was going to talk FFXIII, but then tacticslion completely derailed my train of thought by goin' off on a Cloud-sucks binge.

Oh, sure! Blame me! Not the 2:39 AM! :P :)

EDIT: Time to bring 2010 Snake (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1004156&postcount=46) into the fray. (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1004192&postcount=51)

I could copy-paste the arguments to give the true illusion of a Snakepost, complete with Walls, but, ehhhh, I'd rather just go back to playing FFXIII. Which is still surprisingly not bad!

... I'm sorry, Snake? I know I was using the wrong word - "emo" is not it, but, otherwise the 2010 Snake made my argument for me.

even after ditching the Zack persona, Cloud remains largely detached and arguably anti-social among most of his comrades; his treatment of Aeris and Tifa, given their mutual clear interest in him, is insufferably cold, and he certainly did not merit the feelings both ladies espoused for him; and his arrogance proves most devastating when he has evidence that he is suffering from a mental disorder (or, in reality, a legitimate possession) and seeks no psychiatric assistance (that decision cost Aeris her life and endangered many more.)

I think what I was looking for, reference both protagonists is "anti-social".

Nonetheless...

I think my other misimpression of Cloud comes from his first extra-FF7 appearance, a personal favorite FF Tactics (now called "War of the Lions" or something). In that he was, again, very one-note and entirely obsessed with Aeris, something that was very odd. And his appearance in FFT was strange, too, making it seem even more like the world had blown up and everyone was washed away in raw magic. ANYWAY.

I'd really like to hear more of this "not bad" set of takes on FF13.

EEEEEEEEEEDIT 2:
Because he told everyone else his problems.

Oh, when it was too late because it had been festering throughout the whole game where he quietly suppressed it until it was mind-numbingly obvious, despite the fact that he'd had evidence (I presume... I mean, I actually explored and read up on my environments)? Yeah, I remember that! It was stupid! He should have said something sooner!

The only uncommunicative one was she, and Tifa <SNIP 'CAUSE THE REST OF WHAT YOU WROTE IS FINE>

Nope: Barrett (about his family), the creepy (if neat, at the time) Vincent, Red XIII, and Yuffie all pretty much lied and kept silent about important things and suffered for it, learning the valuable lesson that teamwork is righto! It's like a thing in that game: you don't talk about your problems and let them fester, and then suffer 'til you're rescued. Cait Sith was secret and mysterious, but didn't really lose or learn anything, as far as I can recall. I could be wrong on that, though.

[Krylo]

Cloud (to himself): I'm having mental breakdowns in the middle of life-or-death situations. I may put myself and everyone else I know and love (or at least like) at serious risk and get us all killed. I'm certainly not going to tell anyone!
Cloud (to everyone else): I'm fine, shut up. Let's go fight machine guns with swords and set up bombs to explode.

Actually what he said to everyone else was that he was very much not fine, and that he fully realized that Sephiroth was controlling him and EVEN HIS ANGER was probably part of that, but he was literally incapable of not going to kill Sephiroth at this point, and then he told the rest of the party not to let him have the black materia.

That was a whole big THING keeping the Black Materia away from Cloud when they were all at the Northern Crater. Because he told everyone else his problems.

And yeah, Aeris got killed BECAUSE she didn't bother telling anyone what she was doing or bringing anyone with her.

The only uncommunicative one was she, and Tifa for reasons Drac and you already said (She knew Cloud's whole past, could have straightened all this shit out WAY sooner, but didn't because she wanted him to be happy and knew digging up the fact his entire life was a lie would be contrary to that/just didn't have the heart to break him down like that if she didn't have to).

[Dracorion]

You're right though, Cloud was pretty much dumb as a brick about Tifa liking him. The whole time through their date he'd be completely clueless while she tried to confess.

Back to the main topic: I played my brother's FFXIII save file once. He was about halfway through the game, just before going to Pulse. I played for half an hour and then put the controller down out of sheer boredom. Youtube is how I acquainted myself with the game's story, and I didn't care for it either. I couldn't give a crap about Lighting, hated Vanille when she was being bubbly and excited or blaming herself for everything (which is pretty much Vanille all the time), and ugh, Hope. And yeah, I didn't like the Snow/Serah romance either, both because it was creepy and I just didn't like Serah period. All she does is be a damsel in distress.

As for FFXII, I'm perfectly okay with blaming everything that was wrong with it on Akitoshi Kawazu.

[MSperoni]

You press A.

That might work on a number of the easier encounters, but it's not effective when you're up against tougher enemies and some of the bosses, and it definitely isn't going to work on the Eidolons.

Also that's not always going to net you a five-star rating, which, if you're going for 100% trophies/achievements is something you want to do. (That might seem frivolous to people who don't care for max trophies/achievements, but some people care about that stuff and so it's worth taking into account since the game was designed with that in mind)

Biggest problems I had with the combat in FF13 is how it's Game Over if your party leader dies, the inability to control your other two party members, and the awful way they handled the numbers in that game. I hate how ridiculous the damage has gotten in Final Fantasy games. You have Lightning attack something and she hits it like eight times for 30,000 damage and those giant, ugly ass digits pour out of the enemy like they bleed numbers and they fill the screen and...ullllgh.

I don't even see why they put the damage numbers in the games anymore. They don't even mean anything. 9999 back in the day was cool because it was THE MAX damage and a kind of milestone. Not to mention battles in past FFs were pretty much static, so numbers flying out of enemies were a way to add some energy. With the cinematic way combat is done in the recent FFs, and the damage being ludicrously high, why bother? It seems a small life-bar over the enemy is enough.

(Sorry I went off on a rant regarding damage numbers in FF, but it bugs me.)

FF7!

I like Yuffie...I didn't really care for Aeris...I don't remember enough about FF7 to contribute to the discussion. I should probably play that game again one of these days.


Lightning is about the only FF protagonist who I've really liked. Cecil was alright, so was Terra*, but Cloud was too much of a wreck for me to invest in emotionally. He lost me. I didn't hate him, I was just totally indifferent towards him. When I played FF7 I was attached more to Yuffie and Tifa than Cloud. As for the rest, Squall was an asshole (though I think his outfit is snazzy), I never played FF9, Tidus was Tidus (I really hated Tidus), and I didn't play enough of FF12 to have an opinion on Vaan.


*I assume Terra is the main character in FF6.

[Solid Snake]

EDIT: Snake? Snake?! Snaaaaaaaaaaaaakeeee!!!! :argh:

...What?

Also Speroni how can you like Tifa and Yuffie more than Aeris
...That question now applies to everyone who inevitably prefers Tifa and Yuffie over Aeris for some inexplicable reason
...Why is it that I have so many unpopular FF opinions

[MSperoni]

Also Speroni how can you like Tifa and Yuffie more than Aeris

I'm surprised you're surprised I like Yuffie the best. Aeris is just...too..."princessy" for me. Tifa owns a bar and beats up stuff with her fists, and Yuffie is not only incredibly cute, she's also a ninja and a thief.

[Krylo]

I like Yuffie...I didn't really care for Aeris...

Brofist.

@Snake: Aeris is a specific kind of Japanese female character created to be the perfect woman for a Japanese man and is just euuuuuugh. Yuna as well.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

I have no idea why Yuffie gets so much hate most people seem to find her annoying. then again, it's those same people that call Cloud an emo for some reason. But I never played anything beyond the original FF7, so I don't know if they portray him as ridiculously whiny and sad in other installments, not saying he's not messed up, of course. I also always liked Tifa more than Aeris. Never saw anything in Aeris. On the other hand I also don't get the "I'M GLAD AERITH DIED YO" camp. Sorry if I spoiled that for you. But it's kind of the video game equivalent of Darth Vader being Luke Skywalker's father. Sorry for that too, just because it's old doesn't mean It's okay to spoil.

It was his sled.

[Locke cole]

Also: Terra was emo as fuck with her "what is love? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVmbhYKDKfU)" schtick, and the whole "I CAN'T DO ANYTHING BECAUSE OH GOD I HAVE SUPER POWERS WHAT."

Locke more so with his dead girlfriend that he kept in his basement.

Celes actually tried to commit suicide.

1: I blame the SNES translation for making Terra seem emo during the whole Mobliz plot. In truth, she really was trying to fight the whole time, but for whatever reason (the prevailing theory is emotions fucking with her Esper side), she was actually losing her ability to fight, not her will to fight. She couldn't go with Celes becuse she wouldn't be able to do anything for her, and she couldn't leave the kids because dammit, someone has to stay here and periodically fight off this green ogre thing! I would give her props for staying behind to fight Humbaba even though she knows she's practically an invalid at that point.

2: I'd rather not get too deep into that subject, but I have two points to make. First, I think it was the ecreepy dude with the basement who was the most creepy guy in that whole thing (oh right, you just so happened to have that drug ready. To administer to Rachel before she truly died. At the request of Locke. Who was at least A COUNTRY away when the attack happened. Sure, that's quite the nice coincidence, creepy man).

Secondly, Locke had her preserved like that because he was looking for something that resurrects the dead. It's less "creepy necrophiliac", and more "Goku keeping Krillin's body in a cryo-pod while he looks for the Dragonballs".

3: That was, perhaps, the most hopeless sequence I've ever seen a protagonist put into. She's stuck on a tiny spit of land in the middle of a vast ocean, everyone before her committed suicide while she was in a coma, even the animals are sick, weak, and dying, she has no way of knowing, or reason to believe, that the rest of the world didn't just get destroyed when the apocalypse happened. Finally, the only person left in the world just died because of her inability to find him healthy fish. Like, protagonists usually are at their best when they're struggling to stop the end of the world; this is a scenario where everything looks like the world has already ended.

Plus, once she gets out of it, she's the one pulling the team together. Like with her rant to Setzer to pull himself together and stop mourning his airship from the bottom of a bottle and all that.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

3:

Just wanna say that this may be my favorite moment out of all final fantasy games.

[tacticslion]

I have no idea why Yuffie gets so much hate most people seem to find her annoying. then again, it's those same people that call Cloud an emo for some reason.

That is, like, the opposite of what is true, at least for me. I mean, I literally called Cloud "emo" upthread (a wordchoice I later recanted, though the sentiment I was trying to get across still stands), and I'm fine with Yuffie.

My guess? She stole stuff from you and people don't like that.

Also she's, like, not lady-like or something? You can't go on a date with her? I don't know. I think she's perfectly fine.

1) I would also just like to thank Locke Cole for stuff on Terra, and generally support his statements (though she really did seem kind of emo, so it's an understandable conclusion to come to). Also adding to it: this is a woman who lost her life and everything resembling a family more than once through the course of the game.

Further, she isn't freaking out 'cause she's got super-powers, she's freaking out because those super-powers turn her into a freakish mutant monstrosity who's been hounded, tortured, manipulated, and controlled her entire life just so that people can use her super-powers.

2) Locke himself... eh, it could be creepy, sure, but he seriously, literally never went there or anywhere near it within the game, so it's all inference on anyone's part. I accepted it as a thing that existed in the same world they had, like, magic creatures in floating jars powering armor you wore through two different sections of the game. Or a guy - ostensibly good - that laughs maniacally while shoving a drill into someone's face repeatedly. Or a little boy who raised himself from newborn status because his freakin' dad was a complete monstrous nutjob who threw him out as a "demon" due to grief-insanity (though that segment had some believability plot-holes).

3) Krylo: shut up. This? Silly. I seriously don't know how you will sit there typing up how Cloud is a bastion of sanity and ration when he totally gives up after being poisoned and losing a single, lousy town, while Celes lost all her friends, saw the entire world die, and watched what amounted to her father figure - the last man she knew to be alive in the entire world - die because she couldn't find him a non-poisoned fish, while she was also poisoned. And also had previously undergone the magitech infusion process that, looking at everyone but her (we never actually see enough of Leo to determine for sure), seemed to seriously erode emotional sanity (and life expectancy). I add the last only because people are mentioning Cloud's trauma of getting infused with creepy super-powers.

So anyway, what about that FF1? Blackbelts! Amirite?!
(FF2: Agh, why is our home on fire?! Also this game kind of sucks! I wish it wasn't so boring, 'cause it has neat ideas!)
(FF3: Actually pretty good what little of it I played. Kind-of-sort-of-ish similar to FFX level-up system in some ways, but pretty hard. Also, not able to read Japanese really hindered doing anything or getting into the story which, as I understand, is mostly just a fleshed out FF1.)
(FF4: Pretty decent, and very fun game, though Cecil was actually cooler as a Dark Knight. Yang and Rydia are pretty much among my favorite characters.)
(FF5: I'm so happy I played someone named "Butz". Also the class system was boss.)
(FF6: Daggum nearest-to-perfection FF made.)
(FF7: Fun game, too much swearing for my tastes, and the protagonist wasn't nearly as compelling as the guy he was pretending to be, though likable enough. My OTP for the game was him and Tifa from the start.)
(FF8: So many awesome ideas so poorly implemented. I wanted this game to be so much more awesome than it was and genuinely enjoyed it up until the very end.)
(FF10: Oh, man, Tidus was annoying. Like super-extremely-supremely annoying. Everyone but Tidus was pretty cool, though. Not the best gameplay.)
... (10-2: AGH WHAT HAPPENED TO YUNA AND WHY IS RIKKU WEARING THAT THING AND WHY IS AURON A GIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLL AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHH- ... huh, wait, this core gameplay is actually pretty fun, go figure.)

[Locke cole]

FF5: I prefer the GBA translation. You don't get to play as "Butz", but the translation is superbly hilarious.

edit: Sometimes, I regret my username here. Using the name of a character from a work you like seems cool when you first make the account, but it inevitably feels weird, however much you still like the character.

edit edit: Speaking of FFV, have you heard of the Four Job Fiesta (http://www.letsplaying.com/lets-playing/FF5FF/)?

[Ryong]

I never was a fan of Aerith, but didn't mind Yuffie or FF10 Yuna. Much more a fan of Garnet and Selphie, though. Yuffie felt weird in FF7, but her younger version on KH, with her way of acting completely unchanged was alright.

FF1: is a nice start. The bridge crossing theme from the start is the best theme ever.
FF2: was weird. Never liked it, tried to several times.
FF3: is good but hard and then got remade into a better game whose only issue was that the new difficulty was "this game is bullshit randomly".
FF4: I hated the characters aside from Yang and Rydia, never found the plot good and hated forced characters.
FF5: was a fan of the more lighthearted plot and the crazy class system.
FF6: I liked some of the characters, but not the equip-esper-for-stats-and-magic mechanic.
FF7: It was okay. Liked Red XIII and Cid, wasn't a fan of most others.
FF8: Hated how you had to know everything you were doing with the junctions and weapons and shit, didn't like having to draw magic, really liked the characters.
FF9: Fucking great. Only thing I didn't like in the game was that one part where there's a physical-heavy dungeon and a magical-heavy dungeon.
FF10: Auron is badass, fuck blitzball, fuck trying to understand what Tidus is, punch destiny in the face...And the weapon system was meh-ish.
FF10-2: What the shit what did I miss how'd I never get that dressphere argh why do I have to change classes like five times in order to start fighting decently fuck what is this plot oh hey nice battle system and skill-learning system.
FF12: Sidequests! Fun battles! Absurd customization! Great characters ( with some exceptions )! Political intrigue! Too fucking bad I still haven't played the Zodiac version.
FF13: GUYS WE HAVE TO CHANGE CLASSES TO HEAL OH FUCK IT'S VULNERABLE CHANGE INTO WHATEVER THE FUCK DEALS DAMAGE DO COMBOS AND SOME SHIT HURRY HURRY aw crap Lightning's dead. Fuck the plot, fuck the characters.

[tacticslion]

edit: Sometimes, I regret my username here. Using the name of a character from a work you like seems cool when you first make the account, but...

You could always ask a mod to change it.

Mine's not superbly better (as in, at all), as it's basically based off a super-cool-looking villain who really didn't accomplish all that much in the end. Fun game, though.

Also it's very improperly capitalized.

Of course most of the names here are based off of something the user nerds out over, so I dunno...

EDIT:
Ryong! I love your breakdown of the FFs! They actually made me laugh out loud. I might not agree with all of it (you seem more harsh than I feel on most of 'em), but over-all it seems we have similar tastes in 'em.

Reference FF2: I know, right?!? I really wanted to like it! I really, really did! Why won't you let me like you, FF2, WHY?!

[Locke cole]

wait, FFIX has a bit where there's a magic dungeon and a physical dungeon? Do you have to split into two parties to do it all at once? Because if so, that sounds like a reference to one bit in FFV.

[Ryong]

Reference FF2: I know, right?!? I really wanted to like it! I really, really did! Why won't you let me like you, FF2, WHY?!

Because you don't have that keyword unlocked yet.

During the PS1 era I played a lot of Chrono Cross, Legend of Dragoon, Legend of Mana, Legend of Legaia, Tales of Destiny 1 and 2 ( 2 which was actually Eternia ) and so on.

Also, as far as usernames go, I used to go by Chocobo_Rider on another forum ages ago because I liked those chocobo knights in the intro of FFT.

It took a few jokes for me to want to change the name.


wait, FFIX has a bit where there's a magic dungeon and a physical dungeon? Do you have to split into two parties to do it all at once? Because if so, that sounds like a reference to one bit in FFV.

Yes, exactly. I can't remember how it was in FFV, but the one in FFIX was midly annoying.

[Locke cole]

In FFV, you have to go through a pair of matched towers. One only allows you to use physical skills (you can't cast magic at all), and the other allows only magic (enemies straight up murderize you if you use physical skills)

The two bosses are the guardians of the Flare and Holy spells and follow the same rules (the magic boss resets the entire battle if you use physical skills).

What's hilarious is that each boss ends the battle by casting the spell they're guarding on you. However, the physical boss begins the battle with 0 MP, so he tries to cast Holy on you... and fails, because he doesn't have enough MP to cast it.

[Ryong]

Man I swear I can't remember that and I played FFV last year.

Guess I have to play it again.

[tacticslion]

Because you don't have that keyword unlocked yet. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgh!

Also, as far as usernames go, I used to go by Chocobo_Rider on another forum ages ago because I liked those chocobo knights in the intro of FFT.

It took a few jokes for me to want to change the name.[/quote]

Relevant! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7km555hZIc) Just spent the entire time dancing in the most vigorous, energetic ways I could with my little 10-month old son! He loved it! Who says vidjagames are bad for you?!

(Also, do that. It's so fun.)

EDIT: this (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Chocobo+theme+FF13&oq=Chocobo+theme+FF13&aq=f&aqi=g3&aql=&gs_l=youtube.3..0l3.43.1472.0.1726.3.3.0.0.0.0.185 .375.1j2.3.0...0.0.tKgHY4my-Fc) is a little better!
Different (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sizaDBSLx7A)!
Frightening (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEUOOgNzOv4)! (also the lyrics are especially appropriate with your former name!)
Lyrics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HwYUVsFgo)!
Er... I might have linked one twice! You don't know!

And: what are you talking about, Locke? I don't recall that at all. Was that on the old SNES or PS versions? I don't know that I ever found those, though I thought I'd found both Flare and Holy.

EDIT.... OOPS.
Yes, exactly. I can't remember how it was in FFV, but the one in FFIX was midly annoying.

Er, I totally have something to say to this. Yes. I... er... look a distraction!

[Dracorion]

...What?

You ninjaed me! :argh:

Reference FF2: I know, right?!? I really wanted to like it! I really, really did! Why won't you let me like you, FF2, WHY?!

Two words: Akitoshi Kawazu.

As for everyone that says they liked Yuffie better than Aeris? (http://lpix.org/516885/C44_040.jpg)

Going off alone and getting killed aside, Aeris was one of the more useful party members you could have, if not the most useful. And more importantly, she was just so deliciously snarky. Seriously, play the game with her in your party all the time and watch her verbally tear everyone a new asshole.

[tacticslion]

Two words: Akitoshi Kawazu.
Aaaaaaaaaagh!

As for everyone that says they liked Yuffie better than Aeris? (http://lpix.org/516885/C44_040.jpg)

But, but: it is forbidden!
...
No, seriously, my computer tells me I'm forbidden and don't have permission.

Going off alone and getting killed aside, Aeris was one of the more useful party members you could have, if not the most useful. And more importantly, she was just so deliciously snarky. Seriously, play the game with her in your party all the time and watch her verbally tear everyone a new asshole.

Do I like Aeris? Yes. Was she my favorite? Nah.

ALSO: Hyadin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oDTUY6crEo)! I love that guy!

[Dracorion]

Try opening it again, and if it still tells you it's forbidden, press enter on the address bar.

[tacticslion]

Try opening it again, and if it still tells you it's forbidden, press enter on the address bar.

Done: hahahahah!
Also: Man, Cloud is a jerk.
Edit: Also: I'd forgotten that! Now I remember!

Relevant to FF7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dkHrr-sOPE&feature=related)
(I found it while randomly clicking on Youtube and waiting for people to update this thread. It's obviously not professional, but it seems well polished to me for what has to be effectively a home-made work of love.)

[Flarecobra]

I still see Cloud as pretty feminine-looking.

[Solid Snake]

I'm surprised you're surprised I like Yuffie the best. Aeris is just...too..."princessy" for me. Tifa owns a bar and beats up stuff with her fists, and Yuffie is not only incredibly cute, she's also a ninja and a thief.

Man I think I must be literally the only person out there who looks beyond such labels as 'occupation' and 'outfit' to see that Aeris actually has a more assertive personality than Tifa or Yuffie.

Whatevs!
At least we can agree on Lightning being great.

This entire discussion has been intriguing, at any rate, because Final Fantasy is like the realm of my unpopular opinions. In just about every other video game series I tend to agree with the consensus from hardcore fans. Examples: The odd-numbered MGS titles were better than the evens, Chrono Trigger was amazing, Suikoden 2 was the best Suikoden, Garrus, Tali and Liara are awesomesauce, etc.

But when it comes to the Final Fantasy series I have very opinions that seem to align with the consensus.

[tacticslion]

But when it comes to the Final Fantasy series I have very opinions that seem to align with the consensus.

I'd love to hear them!

[Dracorion]

Man I think I must be literally the only person out there who looks beyond such labels as 'occupation' and 'outfit' to see that Aeris actually has a more assertive personality than Tifa or Yuffie.

Ahem.

Going off alone and getting killed aside, Aeris was one of the more useful party members you could have, if not the most useful. And more importantly, she was just so deliciously snarky. Seriously, play the game with her in your party all the time and watch her verbally tear everyone a new asshole.

Aeris at least was more assertive in her attraction to Cloud. I don't quite remember if she ever admitted it or made it blatantly obvious, but at least she wasn't like Tifa, quietly and awkwardly pining after Cloud from a distance.

Hell, Tifa didn't actually start liking Cloud when they were kids until he promised to one-up all the other boys macking on her by becoming a Soldier.

Whatevs!
At least we can agree on Lightning being great.

No, I pretty much have to disagree there. It was like she was a female Squall, except Hope was her Rinoa.

[MSperoni]

Still like Yuffie and Tifa better.

[Solid Snake]

I'd love to hear them!

You ready for some controversy?!?

* I hated FFIV. (Hate might be a strong word, but I really disliked it.)

* I view FFV and FFVI as rough equals and would have difficulty choosing between them (but both were far worse than Chrono Trigger.)

* I covered "FFVI is overrated" nearly five years ago on NPF, and nearly was banned for daring to suggest it.
...Well okay I was a tad more hostile than I should have been about it, and the warnings were well deserved, but still, point remains; so many of you are attached to FFVI, while I'm comparatively ambivalent.
FFVI wasn't a terrible game, but the World of Ruin destroyed the momentum of the storyline and things never quite recovered after that. I wasn't terribly fond of about half of the playable cast.

* FFVII is the best Final Fantasy, but it's still a flawed role-playing game and not even close to the best JRPG out there. The former part of that statement puts me at odds with the general consensus of 'hardcore' FF fans against FFVII; the latter part pits me against fanboys who believe that FFVII is perfect. The general vibe in gaming is that you either love FFVII and think it's perfect or you hate it and think it's overrated; I fit neither in that dichotomy.

* In that vein, the Final Fantasy series overall is overrated. Only two or three FFs are likely to make a list of my top twenty RPGs; I'm guessing FFs are much more broadly represented on most people's lists.

* Rikku's age notwithstanding, Tidus and Rikku totally would have made for a better couple. If Rikku was just a couple years older, I'd probably heavily ship it. Though, hell, I don't really even mind age differences in relationships in fictional worlds, given that other cultures don't make as big a deal out of it and I'm willing to suspend disbelief in fantasy and sci-fi. This may also explain why Serah and Snow don't bother me in the slightest -- though I actually buy Serah as in her early to mid twenties, so it's irrelevant there anyway.

* Also, Squall should have chosen Quistis. Squall, why are you so dumb.
...Okay, the fact that I hate Squall and hate FFVIII is going to be the exception to the rule of controversial opinions. I think most fans agree with me there. But I think Squall's sheer mind-blowing degree of stupidity merits universal disdain.

* Final Fantasy Tactics was awful and I do not understand everyone's obsessions with it. The storyline was bad, the gameplay was bad, even imagining replaying the game makes me feel ill. And this isn't coming from someone who hates all strategy RPGs as a matter of principle; Front Mission 3 and Valkyria Chronicles were both amazing experiences.
...Actually the theory that FFXII and FFT take place in the same world really resonates me, because those two turdfests deserve each other. There's just something about the way those games treat their characters and the natures of their storylines that ultimately does not resonate with me.

* As I said earlier; Aeris is an objectively better character than Tifa or Yuffie. My two favorite playable FF characters are Nanaki and Aeris -- that definitely puts me in a minority. In fact, the first time I played FFVII my party was consistently Cloud, Aeris and Nanaki (I called it "A Man, A Girl and His Dog;" not an original team name but I was a young'un.) Until, of course, 'that scene.'

* Rufus Shinra was a better villain in FFVII than Sephiroth.
...Actually just about all the Shinra / Turks characters were better villains than Sephiroth.

* Beatrix was the best character by far in FFIX; the fact that she was not a permanent playable character really hurt the quality of the game, which I probably would have enjoyed even more if she could be recruited. I still don't understand why we got stuck with the likes of Quina and Amarant, but not Beatrix. In general, the low caliber of FFIX's supporting cast sabotaged its chances of being remembered as one of my favorite FFs.

* Edgar Figaro, you are Final Fantasy VI's saving grace.
...Terra was pretty cool, too. It'd probably be controversial that I both A: shipped Terra and Edgar when I was young (though back then I didn't know what shipping was, and now I don't care as much as I did when FFVI was one of a select few RPGs I'd played) and B: prefer Terra and Edgar over, say, Locke and Celes. Locke always felt stale and boring to me as a character.

* Despite my hatred of FFVIII, Balamb Garden (and the Gardens in general) were really cool places aesthetically, and remain a few of my favorite unique places in FF lore.

* As I went to collect songs from the FF series for a series of videogaming Youtube playlists lately, I was genuinely shocked at how few FFIX titles made the list. I really wasn't a huge fan of FFIX's soundtrack. FFVIII was better represented. I mean, I don't have any particularly bad memories of FFIX's soundtrack, I think I enjoyed it while I played it, but it just really hasn't stood the test of time with me.

...Well, there's enough weird FF opinions to subject me to a beating.

Opinions on FFXIII are subject to change, but right now I'd say it's lining up to be my fourth or fifth favorite FF if things keep up. (Things may not keep up though; I'm just beginning Chapter 8.) Lightning, Snow and Sazh are all great characters, and I care enough about them to invest in the narrative. Vanille is...okay (though she's lost points with me since losing her Pinkie Pie-esque enthusiasm and slipping into depression.)

[Solid Snake]

No, I pretty much have to disagree there. It was like she was a female Squall, except Hope was her Rinoa.

Oh God.
...Oh God.
LIGHTNING FALLS IN LOVE WITH HOPE?!?!?!

Oh fuck oh fuck oh fuck oh fuck
Welp, that's it everyone, I'm done with Final Fantasy XIII. Never touching this atrocity again.

Also why would you spoil that

And:

Still like Yuffie and Tifa better.

I think you're misinterpreting, Matt. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise; that would be disrespectful. Everyone's entitled to their own subjective opinions. And besides, I'm not really advancing concrete intellectual arguments, here. It isn't really worth it.
I'm just expressing my own opinions, and expressing shock at how much mine are out of alignment.

[Dracorion]

* Final Fantasy Tactics was awful and I do not understand everyone's obsessions with it. The storyline was bad, the gameplay was bad, even imagining replaying the game makes me feel ill.

Aaaaaaaand your opinions have all now been discredited forever. Tactics is pretty much the best Final Fantasy, dude. The only gripes anyone could have about it are that the game was fairly easy to break over your knee, Orlandu was overpowered (and even then no one was forcing you to use him), and that Matsuno has a habit of forgetting about character development, though the characters themselves were still good.

Oh God.
...Oh God.
LIGHTNING FALLS IN LOVE WITH HOPE?!?!?!

Oh fuck oh fuck oh fuck oh fuck
Welp, that's it everyone, I'm done with Final Fantasy XIII. Never touching this atrocity again.

Also why would you spoil that

I maaaaayyyy have slightly forgotten that you said you were just starting the game. Sorry.

But if you're already by Chapter 8 then you've already seen Lightning and Hope buddying it up.

I'll grant that comparing them to Rinoa and Squall might not have been the best comparison. Lightning doesn't swing quite as jarringly between not giving two shits about the kid and liking him.

[Locke cole]

I liked Tactics A2.

I also liked Tactics Advance, but A2 was bascially Tactics Advance made better in nearly every respect. With the exception of screwing over Magic users. The abilities were interesting, the new classes were fun, the plot didn't spark fifty million controversies over whether or not the main character was Hitler, and the side-quests had storylines that could have filled their own games.

[Solid Snake]

Aaaaaaaand your opinions have all now been discredited forever. Tactics is pretty much the best Final Fantasy, dude. The only gripes anyone could have about it are that the game was fairly easy to break over your knee, Orlandu was overpowered (and even then no one was forcing you to use him), and that Matsuno has a habit of forgetting about character development, though the characters themselves were still good.

I've bolded the part that pretty much explains 60% of what I hate most about FFT.

But if you're already by Chapter 8 then you've already seen Lightning and Hope buddying it up.

Yeah but there's a difference between "being lovers" and "being buddies." Lightning growing to like Hope was regrettable in the sense that Hope isn't worth liking, but it did suggest positive character development for her generally. Comparing them with Squall and Rinoa is aksdjfsdkjfaskdfjaksl

...Her falling in love with Hope is just uuuugggggggghhhh
Someone find me a barf bag

[Locke cole]

Who here played the Dissidia games?

[IHateMakingNames]

Random FF opinions inspired by SS.

The first arc of FF7 (Midgar) is the best segment of any FF. Early FF8 (Up till Edea) is really close.

The second half of FF6 is utterly pointless to the plot and pretty boring on its own.

Kefka is a shitty reoccuring side villain who gets lucky and accidentally wins, and that one judge.

FF9 had the best world setting.

X-2 has the best battles and everything related to battles.

Kain is the worst major character.

Tactics Ogre is better than FFT.

Shinra and the Turks are the best villain and then side characters.

Everyone in FFXII but Balthier and the main villain was boring.

FFIV used its ensemble cast much better than FFVI. FFVI had more interesting characters and story.

I forget that FFIII is a game.

[MSperoni]

I figured Lightning's "attachment" to Hope was due to her being guilty over her treatment of Serah,and so she sorta saw him as a little brother she had to protect. Hope's attachment to Lightning was because he lost his mom and saw her as a mother/older sister figure that could maybe make his loss easier. I'm not a fan of Hope, but I think I'm sometimes too hard on him. He can't help he's a animu stereotype.

Either way, I don't think they're in *love* unless you just want them to be for shipping purposes. I don't think Lightning much cares for that sorta thing. The difference I found between Lightning and Squall is that Lightning's hard exterior was more due to her drive to help her sister and her guilt for being so mean to her, like she didn't care about anything else so she shut a lot of people out so she wouldn't have to compromise anything in her quest to help Serah. Squall seemed to be a dick since it was fashionable to be a dick at the time. He was just this grumpy, loner asshole who the writers thought was a LOT cooler than he was (and you could tell).

Also, Tactics is my favorite FF game, so ....yeah... :D

Since I don't remember enough about FF7 to comment about characters, I just like the ones I like. Be that superficially or whatever. I just *LIKE* Yuffie. That's about the size of it. I'm not president of the Yuffie fanclub and I couldn't tell you much about her past and I don't fap to H pics of her 24/7...but my memory of the game is such that when people ask me who my fave is I say Yuffie. I like spunky little ninja/thief lady characters. They're fun :)

[Solid Snake]

Oh God oh God

Are Lightning and Hope going to fly up to the moon
Will Lightning save Hope in space (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBZ7-aDMd3A)
And will this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qcW0oiLKHg&list=PL294020FE0E62D993&index=62&feature=plpp_video) start playing as the two romantically embrace inside a conveniently placed starship?

FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK
Dracorion if I go to the hospital over the stroke that this sends me into you're paying the bills

[tacticslion]

You ready for some controversy?!?

Yes! :)

* I hated FFIV. (Hate might be a strong word, but I really disliked it.)

* I view FFV and FFVI as rough equals and would have difficulty choosing between them (but both were far worse than Chrono Trigger.)

* I covered "FFVI is overrated" nearly five years ago on NPF, and nearly was banned for daring to suggest it.
...Well okay I was a tad more hostile than I should have been about it, and the warnings were well deserved, but still, point remains; so many of you are attached to FFVI, while I'm comparatively ambivalent.
FFVI wasn't a terrible game, but the World of Ruin destroyed the momentum of the storyline and things never quite recovered after that. I wasn't terribly fond of about half of the playable cast.

So! We're starting off with both guns a-blazin'!

First... well, actually, I'd say those two are about the top of the first ten numbered titles for me, too, though that might change on a given day, as I just didn't have the time spent in five as it deserves. Now, if you're comparing to Chrono Trigger... yeah, well, duh. It's Chrono Trigger. FF6 aint'a gonna appeal to as many as CT what with the whole operatic stuff and whatnot and large ensemble cast and rather depressing overtones. CT might lend a depressing moment, but it's always ultimately uplifting and hopeful. FF6, though is very much like an Opera with multiple acts and a twist storyline (one of FF's kind-of-sort-of failings... but I'll get back to that later). It's not going to appeal to everyone's sensabilities.

But yeah, obviously, I highly disagree with your assessment of the merit of five and six, especially six, but you know, to each their own. Seriously, though rethink it a bit and look at it to make sure you're not just being reactionary. You may have perfectly valid points! I don't know. I'd kind of like to read your old post, as I never did before.

* FFVII is the best Final Fantasy, but it's still a flawed role-playing game and not even close to the best JRPG out there. The former part of that statement puts me at odds with the general consensus of 'hardcore' FF fans against FFVII; the latter part pits me against fanboys who believe that FFVII is perfect. The general vibe in gaming is that you either love FFVII and think it's perfect or you hate it and think it's overrated; I fit neither in that dichotomy.

Hahah, oh wow. Well the first sentiment of the first sentence is a "nope", but pretty much everything else explains how I feel. When I first got seven I was really frustrated with it, but I got into the game and enjoyed it thoroughly, even though I never fully appreciated everyone as much as others did, I think. I think part of my initial negative reaction was "Uh, let me know when we find actual heroes, 'cause these guys are pretty villainous, what with the blowing up population centers and all" where my friends (when we'd discuss it) would basically say, "These are the prettiest graphics ever, it's such a great game" and there'd be no discussion after that. It was really annoying. Despite that I learned to like the game and characters.

* In that vein, the Final Fantasy series overall is overrated. Only two or three FFs are likely to make a list of my top twenty RPGs; I'm guessing FFs are much more broadly represented on most people's lists.

* Rikku's age notwithstanding, Tidus and Rikku totally would have made for a better couple. If Rikku was just a couple years older, I'd probably heavily ship it. Though, hell, I don't really even mind age differences in relationships in fictional worlds, given that other cultures don't make as big a deal out of it and I'm willing to suspend disbelief in fantasy and sci-fi. This may also explain why Serah and Snow don't bother me in the slightest -- though I actually buy Serah as in her early to mid twenties, so it's irrelevant there anyway.

I tend to agree. They were both energetic, outgoing, and athletic. They had many similar interests and ideas. In any sort of a real world with relationship freedom, they'd likely end up together. The age totally squicked me out, though. I can't comment on the XIII stuff, though.

* Also, Squall should have chosen Quistis. Squall, why are you so dumb.
...Okay, the fact that I hate Squall and hate FFVIII is going to be the exception to the rule of controversial opinions. I think most fans agree with me there. But I think Squall's sheer mind-blowing degree of stupidity merits universal disdain.

I entirely agree. The love story billed us in FF8 was not the love story we got. It could have been, if Quistis were the female lead, but NOPE! We get Rinoa. Who's nice enough, I guess, but again has so little in common with Squall, it's literally just him going dopey over a pretty brunette. Still, that's not the worst sin FF8 commits, not by far, and it still could have worked. They just mussed the ending something awful.

* Final Fantasy Tactics was awful and I do not understand everyone's obsessions with it. The storyline was bad, the gameplay was bad, even imagining replaying the game makes me feel ill. And this isn't coming from someone who hates all strategy RPGs as a matter of principle; Front Mission 3 and Valkyria Chronicles were both amazing experiences.
...Actually the theory that FFXII and FFT take place in the same world really resonates me, because those two turdfests deserve each other. There's just something about the way those games treat their characters and the natures of their storylines that ultimately does not resonate with me.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Ooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhh! Wheeeeewwwwwww! Ah, Snake, the hater of political dramas, I guess? I mean, seriously, the dialogue was translated really humerously in FFT, but other than that I have no idea what you're talking about. I mean, like, "Wat?" I'd love to hear you tear the story apart. The game play wasn't even close to "bad" (and was far smoother and more pleasant than the near-simultaneous-for-me Tactics Ogre, though I love that game, too), and I really have no idea what you're going on about. I'd love to know, though. Seriously. I really would.

* As I said earlier; Aeris is an objectively better character than Tifa or Yuffie. My two favorite playable FF characters are Nanaki and Aeris -- that definitely puts me in a minority. In fact, the first time I played FFVII my party was consistently Cloud, Aeris and Nanaki (I called it "A Man, A Girl and His Dog;" not an original team name but I was a young'un.) Until, of course, 'that scene.'

First: objectively is a really funny word there when in your next post you speak of opinions. Second, that team you mention is pretty sweet. Nanaki (or Red 13 to those who've forgotten) was pretty universally loved, at least amongst my friends. I can't really recall anyone going "Boo" to him, like, ever. And I like the team name.

* Rufus Shinra was a better villain in FFVII than Sephiroth.
...Actually just about all the Shinra / Turks characters were better villains than Sephiroth.

MAN do you and I ever agree. Sepheroth was all, "I'm a hipster mutant who's sword is so large, I get punked out by a brat after I stab him" whereas Shinra and the Turks actually did stuff that mattered and were really people. Seph was mostly just a wierdo with superpowers and a really freaking long sword.

* Beatrix was the best character by far in FFIX; the fact that she was not a permanent playable character really hurt the quality of the game, which I probably would have enjoyed even more if she could be recruited. I still don't understand why we got stuck with the likes of Quina and Amarant, but not Beatrix. In general, the low caliber of FFIX's supporting cast sabotaged its chances of being remembered as one of my favorite FFs.

I don't know nine, sadly.

* Edgar Figaro, you are Final Fantasy VI's saving grace.
...Terra was pretty cool, too. It'd probably be controversial that I both A: shipped Terra and Edgar when I was young (though back then I didn't know what shipping was, and now I don't care as much as I did when FFVI was one of a select few RPGs I'd played) and B: prefer Terra and Edgar over, say, Locke and Celes. Locke always felt stale and boring to me as a character.

Why would A be controversial? I did. I kind of presumed that's what would happen. It surprised me that said relationship never developed. As far as B, you'd be forgiven for that, because until the World of Ruin, Terra was pretty much supposed to be the protagonists of the game (despite Sabin's time in the sun as the only player), and certainly one of the most central plot points.

* Despite my hatred of FFVIII, Balamb Garden (and the Gardens in general) were really cool places aesthetically, and remain a few of my favorite unique places in FF lore.

Agreed! Those places were terrific!

* As I went to collect songs from the FF series for a series of videogaming Youtube playlists lately, I was genuinely shocked at how few FFIX titles made the list. I really wasn't a huge fan of FFIX's soundtrack. FFVIII was better represented. I mean, I don't have any particularly bad memories of FFIX's soundtrack, I think I enjoyed it while I played it, but it just really hasn't stood the test of time with me.

8 did have good music, I think. If I recall a lot was better than 7, though not as high as 6 or CT. Also Tactics had a remarkably good score. Ten was meh, and I still don't know nine.

...Well, there's enough weird FF opinions to subject me to a beating.

Nah. Disagreement, and bitter hatred with plans for revenge against your family, maybe, but not a beating! I'm not cruel! :)

Opinions on FFXIII are subject to change, but right now I'd say it's lining up to be my fourth or fifth favorite FF if things keep up. (Things may not keep up though; I'm just beginning Chapter 8.) Lightning, Snow and Sazh are all great characters, and I care enough about them to invest in the narrative. Vanille is...okay (though she's lost points with me since losing her Pinkie Pie-esque enthusiasm and slipping into depression.)

Let me know! Also, don't be "done forever" before you've seen it through!

[Solid Snake]

Yes, "objectively" in the context of liking Aeris was a poor choice of words.
And, if anything, I think my general gravitation towards political dramas (and the fact that therefore, I should find FFT and FFXII really appealing) speaks to the failures of both games. FFT and FFXII's storylines should be right up my alley, but they both utterly failed to rope me in.

As for FFVI, I'll concede that it's objectively a well-crafted RPG. It does a lot of things right. A lot of the things that it does right just do not appeal to me on that subjective, personal level, though.
Like I think there's a difference between games that you feel are bad, yet concede are well-made, and games that you'd argue are 'objectively' bad, like games you'd review poorly if you were a professional reviewer for a website. FFVI has all the ingredients of a solid role-playing experience. For a wide variety of reasons, which I'm not keen of getting into here (though I got into them five years or so ago), it just didn't resonate with me.
To further delineate things, I'd probably rate FFVI the second or third best FF in a capacity as a professional reviewer, like if IGN or Giantbomb asked me to write up some FF rankings compendium. While personally, it'd rank something more like fifth -- actually, right around where I'd rank FFXIII right now.

It's easier for me to accept and respectfully disagree with people who say FFVI is phenomenal these days, but whenever someone says that FFT was amazing, I'm still a bit perturbed. There's just something regarding Tactics that I'm missing.

[tacticslion]

Yay! Opinions! I like them!
Random FF opinions inspired by SS.

I... what?! I totally started that! Credit! I claim ALL the credit! :P :)

The first arc of FF7 (Midgar) is the best segment of any FF. Early FF8 (Up till Edea) is really close.

I really agree with FF8 up until Edea being right up there. At that point we're not quite as into the jerky-Mc-Jerk of Squall and the strange "Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-?" of the rest of the story. Really it's the power of that early part that drove me through the rest of it.

FF7 was really interesting, but I never really felt like a "hero" in the early parts since I was, you know, actively exploding important pieces of infrastructure in a city.

The second half of FF6 is utterly pointless to the plot and pretty boring on its own.

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhh... no. It's a different plot, based out of the first (and first yours and then Shadow's failure on the floating continent).

Kefka is a shitty reoccuring side villain who gets lucky and accidentally wins, and that one judge.

Pretty much! But the thing is, you hate him so much (or at least I did), it's pretty much the worst thing when he gets all of the power. I mean: NO one wanted him to have that, even his "allies". And he knew it. It's kind of like if the Joker suddenly became Thor and a Green Lantern. The world would hate that so very bad. And yes, I just crossed Marvel and DC. Whatever.

FF9 had the best world setting.

I still don't know nine. Tragedy, really.

X-2 has the best battles and everything related to battles.

I can't quite go that far. It may be, but I'm just too off-put by the sheer doofyness of 10-2 to really get fully into the battles. They were pretty sweet, though.

Kain is the worst major character. Kain from... ?

Tactics Ogre is better than FFT.

You would say that. :D

Shinra and the Turks are the best villain and then side characters.

They are pretty great.

Everyone in FFXII but Balthier and the main villain was boring.

Haven't played it.

FFIV used its ensemble cast much better than FFVI. FFVI had more interesting characters and story.

I think I can agree with this, to a point. I think 6 came off much better of the two of them, though, and I think the fact that 6 really had no one, single protagonist was a really powerful strong point, though I can see where that might be off-putting to many.

I forget that FFIII is a game.

As do we all.

Yes, "objectively" in the context of liking Aeris was a poor choice of words. I do that too!
And, if anything, I think my general gravitation towards political dramas (and the fact that therefore, I should find FFT and FFXII really appealing) speaks to the failures of both games. FFT and FFXII's storylines should be right up my alley, but they both utterly failed to rope me in.

I just... I don't know what more you wanted? I mean, you have most things done pretty well in most regards.

As for FFVI, I'll concede that it's objectively a well-crafted RPG. It does a lot of things right. A lot of the things that it does right just do not appeal to me on that subjective, personal level, though.
Like I think there's a difference between games that you feel are bad, yet concede are well-made, and games that you'd argue are 'objectively' bad, like games you'd review poorly if you were a professional reviewer for a website. FFVI has all the ingredients of a solid role-playing experience. For a wide variety of reasons, which I'm not keen of getting into here (though I got into them five years or so ago), it just didn't resonate with me.
To further delineate things, I'd probably rate FFVI the second or third best FF in a capacity as a professional reviewer, like if IGN or Giantbomb asked me to write up some FF rankings compendium. While personally, it'd rank something more like fifth -- actually, right around where I'd rank FFXIII right now.

We coo'.

It's easier for me to accept and respectfully disagree with people who say FFVI is phenomenal these days, but whenever someone says that FFT was amazing, I'm still a bit perturbed. There's just something regarding Tactics that I'm missing.

I'd just really love to hear your blow-by-blow of this. I'm really trying to fathom where it is you dropped off the bandwagon.

Confession time: when I first had FFT, I hated it. Mostly because I couldn't get passed the first battle.

See, I didn't have the manual (my first copy was used), my controller wasn't working properly (though I didn't know it at the time) and I couldn't figure out how to get more people on the battlefield. I played it that way for months - I was so supremely disappointed with the purchase. It than sat unused for months. Then a random visitor came over, wanted to play it, pushed the R1 button (and it worked! Incidentally, this was how I learned my controller wasn't working well) and suddenly had someone else on the field. They left later that day, and I was hooked. I eventually burned through two disks and currently have two more floating around here somewhere. So, yeah, you could say it was one of my favorite games.

I'd really love to see your analysis of when, where, and why it went wrong.

[Locke cole]

It's Chrono Trigger. FF6 aint'a gonna appeal to as many as CT what with the whole operatic stuff and whatnot and large ensemble cast and rather depressing overtones. CT might lend a depressing moment, but it's always ultimately uplifting and hopeful.

Of course, then Chrono Cross came along and "fixed" the hopeful tone. :mad:

At least, that's from what I hear. I should play the game sometime. I like to imagine that SNES Chrono Trigger led to Cross, and the DS Chrono Trigger just had a happy ending, where Chrono and Co. beat the tar out of Dalton when he showed up again, since he told them when and where like a complete dolt.

[Dracorion]

Seriously don't get me started on Chrono Cross, we'll be here all day.

Besides, do you really want to risk attracting the Fifthfiend by bringing it up?

[Solid Snake]

Besides, do you really want to risk attracting the Fifthfiend by bringing it up?

Really, the only thing this thread is missing right now is a healthy dose of Fifthfiend.

[Locke cole]

No, that's about all I want to say. Gil is totally Magus from the SNES universe, which led into Chrono Cross. That's about all I really need to say on the matter.

[Ryong]

DID SOMEONE SAY CHRONO CROSS!?

( All I will mention about Chrono Cross is that it manages to make Lavos the most badass villain ever because it's implied that he's been collapsing alternate timelines into ones where he suceeds. )

But yeah no seriously, Snake, FFT and FFXII "turdfests"? FFVII the best?

What the fuck are you high on?

FFT was far from goddamn perfect but it had a fuckton of awesome things - though, granted, I hated delayed magic and the brave/faith mechanic.

FFXII had fun sidequests, a great world to explore, a nice plot and, while I may agree that Vaan and Penelo aren't all that great - both of them are interestingly crazy awesome in FFTA2, though - it still has some nice characters.

Just to mention again, FFX-2 had a nice combat system, but fuck missables* and fuck having to change classes all the goddamn time to use strong magic and shit.

* = yes I'm aware FFXII has the goddamn Zodiac Spear, but it's a far smaller problem than goddamn missing classes.

[Locke cole]

I always enjoyed making Penelo into an Assassin using Sword Dance with a katana.

[tacticslion]

Chrono Cross: it was a terrible sequel to Chrono Trigger, though it had some great ideas (such as Lavos collapsing timelines). Take it out of that context, though, and it's a pretty good game with some plot holes and Deus-Ex-Whattheheck, but then again the last tends to be my experience with many Square titles.

I must needs play FF9 and FF12. I am seriously harming myself by not doing so.

I really want to talk more about that, but I don't have time now! Later.

Related: I need to finish playing the amazing Shadows of Colossus (I've seen it all already, I just need to do it myself, too).

[Ryong]

Chrono Cross: it was a terrible sequel to Chrono Trigger, though it had some great ideas (such as Lavos collapsing timelines). Take it out of that context, though, and it's a pretty good game with some plot holes and Deus-Ex-Whattheheck, but then again the last tends to be my experience with many Square titles.

I must needs play FF9 and FF12. I am seriously harming myself by not doing so.

Yes, play FF9. And try to play FF12 Zodiac edition. It's much better than the normal one.

[Solid Snake]

But yeah no seriously, Snake, FFT and FFXII "turdfests"? FFVII the best?

What the fuck are you high on?

Oh nnnooooesssss I disagree with you
Clearly it's the end of the world

But yeah I'm just not fond of FFT or FFXII's characters, aesthetics, worlds, or plotlines
Like I wish I could do what tactics has requested and give you like a point-by-point, blow-by-blow account of where I feel they went wrong? But that would require me replaying two games that I haven't touched in years that I really dislike, and I don't exactly have time these days to waste on games I have poor memories of.
Each game's biggest problem, however, was a complete failure to draw me into their stories and make me care about their characters.

[Terex4]

FFIV was a decent enough game, but I hated not being able to assemble my own party. Though my disdain over the fixed party is nothing compared to my utter hatred of having to use Edward for any measurable length of time.

It seemed like, by the end, you were stuck with the most incompetent characters that you had met along the way (barring Rydia). Edge was too full of himself to make a half-decent ninja, Kain was far too prone to brainwashing, and Rosa was a perpetual damsel-in-distress. Cecil was okay.

After the Giant of Bab-il, I expected to get Golbez for a bit. I was disappointed.

FFV allowed quite a bit of customization, which is a big winner for me. The story wasn't fantastic but I still love the game.

FFVI was excellent and a strong contender for best FF overall. Granted, I think most people felt a bit pidgeon-holed into using a select few characters but I thought the range of selectable party members was nice to have.

The World of Ruin could have been handled better, but I enjoyed Kefka and his insanity. Sometimes a good villain doesn't need motivation beyond "its fun."

FFVII had my favorite ability system. Materia offered a wealth of customization options and the game had some nice extras to it (Ruby/Emerald, Golden Saucer) and I wound up doing literally everything there was to do in that game. I have yet to invest nearly as much time into another FF title which, I suppose, speaks volumes as to which FF is my favorite overall. To be honest, I found the storyline to be frustrating to follow and ultimately irritating. Rufus was far superior to Sephiroth as a villain and, in my opinion, looked cooler to boot. I never did understand the obsession with Sephiroth...

Cid and Aeris were my party members in that game.

FFVIII....I'm not touching this one. If nothing else, draw says enough.

FFIX was fun and had a decent system for abilities. I fully agree that being unable to obtain Beatrix as a permanent party member was border-line crippling though. She is one of my favorite FF characters to date.

FFT stands out for the sheer amount of customization available which is why I love it so much. Sure, it was easy as all hell to break, but it wasn't hard to be creative as opposed to min/max too. I remember having a blast on the final Gafgarion fight with an all-magic party who all had teleport.

I rarely invest myself in a FF storyline as they tend to get a bit too crazy by the end, but my favorite is FFVII prior to getting into the whole Sephiroth clone, who is Cloud really bit.

e: Oh yeah, I haven't played anything beyond IX so....no comment =D

[Ryong]

Oh nnnooooesssss I disagree with you
Clearly it's the end of the world

But yeah I'm just not fond of FFT or FFXII's characters, aesthetics, worlds, or plotlines
Like I wish I could do what tactics has requested and give you like a point-by-point, blow-by-blow account of where I feel they went wrong? But that would require me replaying two games that I haven't touched in years that I really dislike, and I don't exactly have time these days to waste on games I have poor memories of.
Each game's biggest problem, however, was a complete failure to draw me into their stories and make me care about their characters.

At least my arguments aren't "I hated them so they're shit" ::V:

Again, FFT has some crazy problems, but it, along with the ogre battle series, laid out the mechanics of a lot of SRPGs. FFXII also has some of the best gameplay instead of cinematic bullshit and none of ohnomylead'sdeadfuck.

Edit: Also, hey, Terex has the same problems with FFIV I have woo!

[DarkDrgon]

Ok. most controversial opinion in this thread, and something no one who's ever heard me talk about RPGs will be surprised about...

Breath of Fire 3 is the best Jrpg of all time. Better than FF7 by a long shot

[IHateMakingNames]

Ok. most controversial opinion in this thread, and something no one who's ever heard me talk about RPGs will be surprised about...

Breath of Fire 3 is the best Jrpg of all time. Better than FF7 by a long shot
Not so much an opinion as it is a blatant fact.

[Ryong]

I'm not a fan of the incredibly slow start the game has, nor of the artstyle.

I prefer 4.

[Locke cole]

FFIV was a decent enough game, but I hated not being able to assemble my own party. Though my disdain over the fixed party is nothing compared to my utter hatred of having to use Edward for any measurable length of time.

It seemed like, by the end, you were stuck with the most incompetent characters that you had met along the way (barring Rydia). Edge was too full of himself to make a half-decent ninja, Kain was far too prone to brainwashing, and Rosa was a perpetual damsel-in-distress. Cecil was okay.

You could try out the sequel. In the final chapters (after a bunch of chapters with fixed partieS), you have a choice of a staggering number of dudes to pick your party from. They aren't all equally useful (there are four guys who are basically "Edge with fewer spells"), but with the number of guys you have, there are a bunch of viable parties. Don't even have to have Cecil. And Edward actually turns into something of a badass, who can heal more capably than Rosa if you set him up right.

[Dracorion]

With regard to Chrono Cross, I can certainly appreciate it for what it is and what it tried to be. Regarding it as a sequel to Trigger, the idea was good if not the execution and what they did to the CT characters. Maybe the first half of the game could've done with some more references to make sure that, yes, you are in the same world CT took place, but hitting you full-force with the reveal and linking the games at the Dead Sea was perfect.

I think Masato Kato got really ambitious and tried to write the Greatest Story Ever, only the genre wasn't ready for it and the technology wasn't advanced enough and he got rushed while doing it so we got stuck with Chrono Cross.

Anyway, while we're discussing games that aren't Final Fantasy, can we just state for the record that TWEWY is basically the best thing?

[Locke cole]

The only thing it needed was more save files.

I want to let the rest of my siblings play it, darnit!

[MSperoni]

Breath of Fire 3 is the best Jrpg of all time. Better than FF7 by a long shot

Dunno about best of "all time" but it's probably my favorite on the PS1 (I never played BF4).

I could play that game *RIGHT NOW*...but I'd rather not bother with FF7. I feel FF7 is best left in the past.

[Solid Snake]

At least my arguments aren't "I hated them so they're shit" ::V:


I think I've been fairly clear throughout this thread with the fact that I've been expressing subjective opinions and not objective, reviewer-esque analyses.

Example of the Distinction:
From an impartial perspective, if I were a videogame reviewer, I'd totally have to give NieR a subpar score because the game has serious flaws. The gameplay's broken, the sidequests are tedious, the graphics aren't pretty, the voice acting for minor characters is atrocious.
From my personal perspective, fuck everything I just typed, NieR was the most memorable and delightful game released this generation, it's the one I remember most fondly and the one that will leave the strongest impact, and if anyone gives that game anything less than a perfect score they should be led into dark alleyways and shot.

It's important to distinguish when acquaintances are attempting to argue the objective, impartial, logically cohesive merits of an issue and when they're just stating personal preferences. Unfortunately, in discourse we all tend to exaggerate, which can tend to blur the distinction. But I think I've been flippant enough throughout these arguments to convey that I'm coming from a perspective of opinion and not attempting to act as an arbiter of every videogame's quality and impact.

[Krylo]

Yeah, but, Snake, your opinions are wrong.

[tacticslion]

Yeah, but, Snake, your opinions are wrong.

But mine are wronger!

[Krylo]

Yes.

Yes they are.

[Solid Snake]

Yeah, but, Snake, your opinions are wrong.

Nah sorry bro, you are the one with the opinions that are clearly and emphatically incorrect.

[Krylo]

Nah sorry bro, you are the one with the opinions that are clearly and emphatically incorrect.

I don't like FF12 or FFT but totally adore FFXIII
:smug:

[tacticslion]

Yes.

Yes they are.

Hey, I apologized for that!

[Azisien]

This is such a nerd thread it's the best. If my mom ever asks me what people do on the Internet I'm going to show her this thread.

[Gregness]

Considering how much I like the FF games I have played, it's kind of a travesty that I've played so few of them (I should thank Nintendo some time for losing the franchise...).

The music was definitely the high point of FFVI for me. Despite being twenty years out of date technologically, the soundtrack to FFVI is the most consistently good of the entire series. I also loved the ensemble cast thing, and the World of Ruin is only superfluous to the plot if you're a completionist. Strictly following the plot, you can go and kill Kefka with just four characters. It's finding all the hidden nooks and bells and whistles that makes it drag on.

I'm a audiophile and somehow the PS1 music palatte that FFVII uses sounds worse in places than the SNES counterpart... =8^/ Sadly, I never finished this one so I can't really comment on the story bits.

Everyone has this massive hate-on for FFVIII, and I'm not sure it's entirely justified. As mentioned earlier, the first half of disk 1 (up to the invasion of Dollet, specifically, but the rest is good too) is one of, if not the best sequence in the whole series. The soundtrack, while not as consistently great as VI, has a few tracks that are actually better. Unfortunately, the game seems to be something of an experiment to see exactly how shitty they can make something if given the absolute best ideas to work with. I'm pretty convinced that VIII had the potential to be the best FF game by far, but every awesome idea they had was implemented in the most frustratingly retarded way possible* and I think that if people want to hate on VIII that that is the reason they should use.

*Seriously, the air battle between Galbadia and Balamb garden had all the ingredients for an absolutely fucking EPIC gaming sequence and it was completely ruined by the retarded implementation of the minigame.

I should look into getting a console more current than my Gamecube so I can actually play the others. =8^(

[Krylo]

I'm pretty convinced that VIII had the potential to be the best FF game by far, but every awesome idea they had was implemented in the most frustratingly retarded way possible* and I think that if people want to hate on VIII that that is the reason they should use.

I can actually more or less agree with this sentiment. There's a few things I would say were just flat out shitty ideas as well.

Like enemy leveling scale has never been a good idea. Ever. In any game. In some games it's LESS completely obnoxious/shitty, but it's never good.

And time compression and the whole 'oh hey we all grew up together and the villain is the woman who raised us and also married to the guy who is the headmaster at our school and still our father figure' thing.

Just uuuuuuuuugh.

But yeah, for the MOST PART, good ideas implemented terribly with a few shitty ideas piled on top of it. I mean the 'being bad ass mercenaries from a bad ass mercenary academy' is fucking gold for the base of your game. Then they ruined it by not letting us actually be bad ass mercenaries for any length of time.

[MSperoni]

Like enemy leveling scale has never been a good idea. Ever. In any game. In some games it's LESS completely obnoxious/shitty, but it's never good.

No kidding. The most horrible enemy scaling in my opinion was in Oblivion. "Oh look at the bandits running around fully equipped with the most powerful armor/weapons in the game."

EDIT: Didn't Final Fantasy Tactics have enemy scaling?

[Krylo]

FFT did but only for random encounters. Story encounters all had pre-determined levels.

It was both bad and good in FFT, because it made grinding faster/easier and the story battles actually got easier if you did so, but it also made random travel points way harder than the actual story line of the game which supposedly involves world destroying horrors, which kinda breaks immersion a bit.

So I'd say over all still bad, but not AS bad.

[Dracorion]

I know this hard mode mod that makes all enemies in FFT, in story battle or out, scale with your level.

The catch? They actually scale to your level + 5 for generic mooks, or more for plot enemies.

Oh, and when guests join you they also scale to like +3 your level and then the enemies scale to +5 theirs.

It's... it's not pretty. Especially since enemies get equipment upgrades based on their level, while you're stuck waiting until the next tier unlocks in the shops.

[Locke cole]

...It's probably still easier than Brightmoon Tor in Tactics A2, where you're, like, fighting 6 Level "Fuck You" monsters who get six extra turns, each, before you can move.

[Solid Snake]

The problem with FFVIII was that the developers felt they had to shoehorn a corny love story between two profoundly unlikable characters into the one FF that would have benefited the most by completely eschewing the love story.

In fact, if any game would have benefited by taking the Tactics approach of eschewing character 'development' in favor of concentrating solely on political machinations and wars between competing nationstates, it's FFVIII.

Even Squall's perpetual inability to give a fuck would have been infinitely more tolerable if the game wasn't desperately trying to convince you that you were supposed to give a fuck about him and if you could just send Balamb Garden after Galbadia Garden and watch shit explode. (And, as I noted earlier, the Gardens themselves were great ideas -- perhaps poorly named, but aesthetically speaking they're among the most memorable Final Fantasy locales.)

Actually you could really improve FFVIII tremendously just by removing Rinoa from the game.

Also Krylo: stop misquoting me! FFXIII is like my *fifth* favorite FF at best, it wouldn't even make a list of my top twenty-five favorite RPGs of all time. I'm pleasantly surprised by it, insofar as it doesn't suck as much as I was led to believe, but I'd still label it only 'slightly above-average' by role-playing conventions, and that sure as hell ain't the same as "adoring" it.

[Krylo]

The problem with FFVIII was that the developers felt they had to shoehorn a corny love story between two profoundly unlikable characters into the one FF that would have benefited the most by completely eschewing the love story. More like 'One of the myriad problems that plagued FFVIII' etc. etc.

But yeah, no, the love story was dumb as shit.

In fact, if any game would have benefited by taking the Tactics approach of eschewing character 'development' in favor of concentrating solely on political machinations and wars between competing nationstates, it's FFVIII. FFT had tons of character development among the named characters. In fact the political intrigue was mostly secondary to Ramza learning to deal with the fact that he'd been lied to his entire life about how the world worked regarding the separation between the rich and the poor and all the damage he had done by simply being a part of the noble caste and naive, when his best friend was not.

And the character growth of Delita from a friendly, if slightly bitter, commoner allowed a better standing in life purely because he was friends with a noble, to a driven politician with a pure motivation (to help bring equality between the poor and the rich) that got muddied up in all the horrible things he needed to do in order to achieve it.

And there's more but I'm not gonna go into it. Just, if you didn't think there was character growth you weren't playing the same game as everyone else.
Also Krylo: you are amazing!jtMv6V7ZvmE

[Ryong]

...It's probably still easier than Brightmoon Tor in Tactics A2, where you're, like, fighting 6 Level "Fuck You" monsters who get six extra turns, each, before you can move.

"Fucking goddamnit I can hit everyone with an -aga spell and then teleport and double slash everyone if I could just get to my goddamn turn already!"

The hardmode mod for FFT? Fuck that. I played the first battle and it has your characters have like 30% chance to hit while every enemy has 90% and archers are crazy strong and of course you start the fight against like four of them.

[Locke cole]

"Fucking goddamnit I can hit everyone with an -aga spell and then teleport and double slash everyone if I could just get to my goddamn turn already!"


Ah, Magick Frenzy. When I replayed the game, I eventually made Luso into a Fighter/Sage using Dual Wield and Magick Frenzy. Managed to turn his devastating physical attack into a long-range burst attack. And for flavor, he was using Ayvuir Red and Ayvuir Blue.

It was so much more satisfying than making him a generic Fighter/Paladin. Besides, I had Frimelda for that.

If there's anything I don't like about A2, other than the superfast monsters, it's that I wound up liking my Generics far more than the actual story characters. Wait, no, should that be a point in its favor, that I really liked the Generics? Eh.

As for Brightmoon, I eventually cheesed it by using a Summoner/Red Mage with Evade Magick, Blood Price, and Phoenix.

[Dracorion]

...It's probably still easier than Brightmoon Tor in Tactics A2, where you're, like, fighting 6 Level "Fuck You" monsters who get six extra turns, each, before you can move.

Yeah, FFT 1.3 (the hardmode mod I'm referring to), doesn't quite throw "Fuck You" until Deep Dungeon.

Before that, the tough endgame bosses are merely moving wherever they like with Teleport 2, dual-wielding magic guns or crossbows, wearing ribbons as accessories, and being 10 levels higher than you or more, which means they all have endgame equipment you can normally only get one of. If you're lucky, they might not come with a trifecta of innate Maintenance/Attack Up/Concentration.

Also? No one has Blade Grasp anymore, except Elmdor. And Knight classes are no longer overpowered. Except when they're enemies, in which case they come with the aforementioned trifecta. Ramza is no longer an unstoppable buff machine, either.

I'd give you an in-depth explanation of Deep Dungeon, except I never got too far into it. Suffice to say that it's full of level 99 enemies and unique enemy types.

But enough of me bitching about that. Maybe I got confused about saying FFT skimped out on character development. I think I meant characterization.

But to put it in simpler terms, I think FFT forgets about characters who aren't main characters or attached to the hip of main characters. Meaning Ramza, Delita and Ovelia. But this is only mostly true. Wiegraf was okay.

But it's especially bad when they completely fall off the radar after you recruit them.

[Solid Snake]

Just, if you didn't think there was character growth you weren't playing the same game as everyone else.

...Maybe.
In my meager defense, it's been more than ten years since I've lasted played FFT. It is entirely possible that there was a lot of subtle context that I missed. It is entirely possible that my tastes have changed in the past decade and I'd actually really love FFT's story if I replayed it today.

...There are several dozen games that fit into that general description, though, and I simply lack the time to replay them all and come to fully informed conclusions.

As for my sensitivity regarding the awful opinions I apparently have: In the past few days I've come to the conclusion that the first dorky convention I will attend will be about ponies for a target audience of young girls, I've discovered that I like a song by Owl City of all bands, and there is another song on my iPod sung by an MGQ fan about an emotionally scarring Japanese hentai game (thanks, jerk on NPF who linked that in that other thread.)
The fact that I discovered I actually enjoy FFXIII is just the icing on the cake. My recent opinions on subjects have become so disturbing that part of me is waging war against myself over daring to like these things. From my politics to my hobbies and interests I have gradually been morphing into the exact kind of person I once felt justified in pitying.

[Krylo]

there is another song on my iPod sung by an MGQ fan about an emotionally scarring Japanese hentai game (thanks, jerk on NPF who linked that in that other thread.)

Touch Fluffy Tail?

Because that song (and that game) is great.

Also, fo' srs FFXIII ain't that bad. No shame in thinkin' it's alright.

[MSperoni]

Yeah, FF13 is good. It's just not what everyone expected a FF game should be...which is a problem a company runs into when they're thirteen games into a series.

Everyone has their idea what the perfect FF was and there's no way a new one is gonna come close.

People are like "It's too linear!" relative to past FF games, yeah. But, should each game be a carbon copy of the previous? If that were the case people would say "It's just a rip off of FF-whatever! Why don't they try something different!". No one is happy :P


For good or bad, I'm just glad to see Squeenix at least attempt to reinvent the series each time. It's better than the kinda thing Capcom does, where they make 80 different installments of the SAME game with the SAME people forever.

But I don't dislike Capcom, I play SSF4 quite a bit, and I really like Megaman, but...there's not much difference between SSF4 and SF2, whereas FF13 is a lot different from the previous games . (Maybe that's an apples to oranges comparison though)

I don't think FF13 is the best FF game but I'm trying to judge it as if the other games didn't exist...Which is hard, but I can't compare it to FF6 or FF4 because it's just NOT that kinda game.

[Ryong]

Sure, make the game linear, yeah, but not a series of battles and cutscenes connected by a straight line.

The whole "leader dies, you lose" thing too, I can't remember this ever being a good design choice.

And while I like whole paradigm shift mechanic, it really shouldn't be pretty much the only way to go about battles. In the end, all of the choices you have avaliable end up being just generic "attack" or "defend and heal" or "use magic the enemy is weak to".

People bitched about automatic battles in FF12 where you still had a fuckton of control - and the time to be able to do stuff - and it was just made worse on FF13.

[Satan's Onion]

Has there been any mention of the Dragon Quest games in this thread?

If not:

Why not?

They're simply delightful, particularly the DS remakes.

[Locke cole]

Yeah, I like the Gambit system in FFXII. Makes me feel like I'm strategising.

[Solid Snake]

...Take every compliment I could possibly give to FFXIII, multiply those comments by two, and you basically have my feelings about FFXIII-2, which seriously is legitimately in contention to be my third favorite Final Fantasy title of all time, no joking.

Man Square-Enix even found a way to legit make Pokemon style monster collection legitimately fun as fuck
Noel is also what Hope would be like if Hope had a better voice actor, a more interesting backstory and less emo bullshittery. Love the fact that he doesn't whine and complain every three seconds and actually handles situations like a competent adult.

Serah is kind of a weak link -- she can't really compare to Lightning, and I think her VA tries a little too hard to emote with some lines -- but she's okay. I mean, I don't hate her.

The moogle is actually also fairly adorable and infinitely less annoying than I assumed it would be.
Finally, for grins and giggles, I totally decided to fuck with Square-Enix's expectations. Square-Enix was all like "Let's be stereotypical about gender roles and make Serah the better mage and Noel the better soldier." And I was like, fuck that noise. So I'm grooming Noel into my Ravager and Serah into my Commando. It makes sense for Serah to follow in her sister's shoes.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Actually if I remember correctly everyone in 13 had 1 role that was specifically 'theirs' and which they were better with than anyone else, in Lightnings case that role was really Ravager. Granted she was a good Commando too, but Fang was better at pure damage, where Lightning was faster and better for chaining.

So really you're defying convention even more by just doing whatever.

[Ryong]

Snake, do you have a PS2 or a PS3 with backwards compatibility?

Go play Atelier Iris: Eternal Mana.

[Solid Snake]

Snake, do you have a PS2 or a PS3 with backwards compatibility?

Go play Atelier Iris: Eternal Mana.

Yes, I have a PS2.
Why should I play Atelier Iris: Eternal Mana?

[Ryong]

The protagonist is a frail alchemist dude and the girl who's the love interest is the party's tank for most of the game. She protects him while he does the potion mixing, basically.

[Solid Snake]

The protagonist is a frail alchemist dude and the girl who's the love interest is the party's tank for most of the game. She protects him while he does the potion mixing, basically.

So long as the game doesn't fall into the 'Nice Guy' syndrome of interpreting the 'frail guy with the tomboyish girl' dynamic as justification for said guy to act like a mopey, bitchin' and moanin' stereotype of passivity and cowardice, sure, it sounds cool.

[Ryong]

Not that it does that, but I assumed you were a fan of said kind of character, I mean, you liked Tales of Abyss, didn't you?

[Solid Snake]

Not that it does that, but I assumed you were a fan of said kind of character, I mean, you liked Tales of Abyss, didn't you?

I've never played Tales of Abyss. Not sure I've ever even mentioned the title before.

[Krylo]

The dude in Iris isn't mopey at all.

[Ryong]

I've never played Tales of Abyss. Not sure I've ever even mentioned the title before.

Oh.

My bad then, must've been someone else.