Let's Talk About Twine

[Kim]

Not yet, but soon.

Who makes the movies we watch? Popular men in nice suits and sunglasses. Tonight on Saturday TV Comedy Time we’re going to talk to you about all the shows you should watch. It cost a lot of money to make them so you better go watch them. The suited men need your money to buy more suits.

You can go watch them in the theater. That’ll be $13 after snacks and drink. Sit in your comfy chair in a dark room full of strangers and watch white men rescue white women. The men are straight. The women are, too. They are the gender they were assigned at birth. The villains are enemies of capitalism or America or whiteness or gender norms. Enemies of normal. Normal movies made for normal people, telling them normal is moral purity. Difference is sin.

Who makes the games we play? It is exactly the same. Instead of theaters we have game systems and HDTVs and new controllers and high speed internet and sixty dollar discs. Barriers to keep the poor out. They are not wanted in this realm. The realm where normal people play games about destroying the other. Rescuing the damsel in distress. Being the damsel in distress erotically broken against rocks and swords and scary foreign men.

It is the system reinforcing itself. Teaching its values to others. Praising normal. Despising other.

Most prisoners are either jobless or working poor. Although African Americans comprise just over 12% of the U.S. population, nearly half of those incarcerated in prisons are black.

…

Inmates in prisons and jails are mostly illiterate, likely high school dropouts, and are either jobless or working at low-wage jobs at the time of their arrests. We find further evidence of the class character of criminal punishment in the categories of offenses for which the state punishes individuals. About half of those incarcerated in state prisons in the mid-1990s were there for crimes against property or for violating statutes regulating the morality of the working class, for example, the war on drugs.

…

The state administratively segregates affluent offenders and conventional criminals. The most notable contemporary instance of the special treatment corporate offenders enjoy is the Enron bankruptcy debacle. Enron, a natural gas pipeline company, engaged in illegal accounting practices. In the summer of 2003, executives of Citigroup and J. P. Morgan, major bankers of Enron, avoided jail time by settling with the federal government for $300 million. Government lawyers acknowledged that bank executives knew of and participated in Enron’s illegal conduct. Such privileges for the well-to-do are reminiscent of practices in medieval Europe, where elites could avoid corporal punishment by paying fines.

Reward normal. Punish the other.

Like gay men, lesbians and bisexual persons, transgendered persons face employment and housing discrimination. They are also denied public accommodations and access to health care for their medical conditions. They are also potential targets for hate crimes: verbal harassment, hate mail, harassing telephone calls and even acts of violence committed by the same persons who hate homosexuals and bisexuals.

Reward normal. Punish other.

51 percent of Americans hold explicitly anti-black views. That figure is up from 48 percent in 2008, the year America elected its first black president.

Those expressing implicit anti-black attitudes also spiked from 49 percent to 56 percent over the same four-year period, the Associated Press found in a poll released Saturday.

Reward normal. Punish the other.

54% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported to the police, according to a statistical average of the past 5 years. Those rapists, of course, never spend a day in prison. Factoring in unreported rapes, only about 3% of rapists ever serve a day in jail.

Entertainment media, just like any other aspect of our culture, reflects these things. It is not immune to the creeping spread of bigotry. It reinforces bigotry. It reinforces systems of oppression.

Why bring this up? What does this have to do with Twine?

Twine is free. You do not need to pay for Twine. All you need to share or experience a Twine game is a computer and an internet connection. It doesn’t need to be a top-of-the-line computer. It can be old as hell. It doesn’t need to be a high-speed internet connection. It can be slow as hell. If you have these, you can make a Twine game and it can be available to anyone else with these things. If you have these, you can experience anyone else’s Twine game, provided you know where to look. The greatest audience for the least cost.

That is not to say there aren’t still barriers. For many people, these are significant barriers. However, it’s much easier for someone without money to experience a Twine game than it is for them to experience a movie at the theater or a video game on a console. It’s not perfect, but it’s miles beyond anything else.

This is important because it gives people who otherwise would not have a voice one. You don’t need loads of time. You don’t need to study for hours to even begin. You don’t need to be rich. You don’t need to be an academic. You don’t need a nice suit. You can be any color, any gender, any sexuality, any identity and play and make Twine games. Others can play those Twine games. Through them we form the simplest, most beautiful connections with others. We may not even be aware of them, but they’re there and they are powerful.

Telling stories about the people we’ve lost. (http://theautumnalcity.org/#)

About a society of conformity, assimilation, and lost identity. (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/109926883/Shorn%20Face.html#)

About trying to communicate our pain to others. (http://marrasart.net/momishome.html#)

About sex, control, and empathy. (http://aliendovecote.com/uploads/twine/LD25/CYBERQUEEN.html)

About wanting to be with our friends. (http://mkopas.net/files/queerpirateplane.html#)

There is an infinity of possibility at our fingertips thanks to Twine. We can share parts of ourselves with others. We, as in all of us. Messages far too important and far too human to be told by suits and cash. Messages that say, “I am different. Understand me.” Messages begging to be loved instead of hated. It is beautiful.

I don’t think Twine is the end. The ultimate destination in our search for ways to share ourselves with others and be loved. It’s a step. A huge step that spans miles, ignoring roads and stop signs and speed limits. It’s a step in a world that has previously only shuffled its feet.

It’s beautiful and wonderful and there aren’t words in my vocabulary to convey just how much I love this simple, accessible, amazing program. A program that let me talk about my own pain. A program that let me feel a little bit more understood. A little bit more loved. Twine helped me. It’s helped others, too.

Maybe Twine can help you. (http://www.auntiepixelante.com/twine/)

[Arcanum]

Twine isn't a game, it's something that helps you create a CYOA story. A CYOA story isn't a game, it's a piece of literature.


That’ll be $13 after snacks and drink.

I wish movie theaters around here were that cheap.


Anyway, how is someone making something on Twine any different from them writing out a word document and throwing it up on tumblr or whatever?

[Kim]

A game is an experience created by rules.

So, yes, Twine games are in fact games.

It's different from a Tumblr post in that it's interactive.

In that the more you know about programming languages, which aren't at all necessary to use it, the more features and intricacies you can add to your game while still taking advantage of the framework Twine provides.

[Arcanum]

It would help if you used an actual definition instead of quoting the person who made Twine and thus has an invested interest in furthering her CYOA maker as a game maker.


game
/g?m/
Noun
A form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.


Experiences created by rules that aren't games:

Books. Movies. Life.


Don't get me wrong, it's a pretty sweet CYOA adventure maker since it looks like it can account for variables and other things. But you aren't making a game with twine.

Also I meant someone posting a CYOA on tumblr (like, if you want to enter the mansion skip to line XX) but yeah actually reading the How To for Twine shows it can do some neat things.

[Kim]

Anna Anthropy is not, in fact, the person who made Twine. She made Lesbian Spider Queens of Mars. She made Dis4ia. She made Mighty Jill Off.

She did not make Twine.

She made a tutorial for Twine because she wanted to help others make things with it. Because she's awesome.

Also, resorting to a dictionary in an argument is a sign of both ignorance and laziness. It is the weakest, most pathetic type of argument.

Definitions change. Dictionaries do not encompass all definitions of a word. Dictionaries don't even have definitions that are comprehensive of the things they define.

[Ryong]

I'm going out a limb here and saying the majority of the "games" are actually CYOA stories.

Out of the ones that aren't, they probably are more like CYOA stories with a way to enforce that you've gotten to certain pages before continuing - relying less on the reader not wanting to spoil itself or such.

But yeah.

I don't need interactivity to make a connection with a person or a character. I need good writing, good atmosphere, a story well told.




There is an infinity of possibility at our fingertips thanks to Twine. We can share parts of ourselves with others. We, as in all of us. Messages far too important and far too human to be told by suits and cash. Messages that say, “I am different. Understand me.” Messages begging to be loved instead of hated. It is beautiful.

I don’t think Twine is the end. The ultimate destination in our search for ways to share ourselves with others and be loved. It’s a step. A huge step that spans miles, ignoring roads and stop signs and speed limits. It’s a step in a world that has previously only shuffled its feet.

It’s beautiful and wonderful and there aren’t words in my vocabulary to convey just how much I love this simple, accessible, amazing program. A program that let me talk about my own pain. A program that let me feel a little bit more understood. A little bit more loved. Twine helped me. It’s helped others, too.

I get a feeling you're thinking about mass media in general - but more specifically, the internet.

[Arcanum]

How silly of me to think there would be a reasonable discussion in this thread. But nope, there go the belittling insults.

You could have bee like "Hey Arc, look at Journey and how it's technically a game but still not really a game and more of an interactive story."

And then I would be like "Damn, you're right, and I love Journey too, how could I forget about that while making my post."

And then the discussion might have evolved into what really defines a game. Oh well, guess that won't happen. See ya, I'm done with this thread.

[Krylo]

So, that's you, what then, Arc? Just blatantly admitting that you knew you were wrong coming in and were therefore only arguing this to get a rise out of someone?

I'm just clarifying here.

[Terex4]

I bit. Here's my submission/insight into the latest developments of my life: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/106579376/Transition.html#

[POS Industries]

I would argue that CYOA books qualify less as literature and more as games due to the interactivity level and the fact that you can effectively "lose" at the book by choosing the wrong option leading to the main character's death or any other number of "bad end" scenarios.

You're pretty much "playing" the book rather than merely reading a set narrative.

[Kim]

I'm really glad you made something, Terex, and I think that it's very good. :>

Also, "What defines a game?" would be pretty off-topic for this thread. I made it to talk about why I think Twine is great, to share some Twine stories with folks here, and to encourage folks to make and share their own Twine stories.

The thread title isn't exactly, "Let's Talk About What Is Or Is Not A Game." I'm also not particularly interested in dignifying what is essentially game community gatekeeping, nor in treating, "I copy-pasted this one dictionary's definition of games TAKE THAT," as any more of a valid argument than it is.

Also, there might be a Twine Game Jam going on this weekend. If that happens, I'll make a post in this thread so anyone can participate. Basically, there'll be a topic, which you don't have to stick to, and a time limit. If you finish your Twine game in the time limit you can submit it and it'll be listed on a page alongside all the other Twine games made for the Game Jam.

[Arcanum]

So, that's you, what then, Arc? Just blatantly admitting that you knew you were wrong coming in and were therefore only arguing this to get a rise out of someone?

I'm just clarifying here.

I made a mistake with my original posts and after coming to that realization I was coming back to this thread to edit them or make a new post explaining my error. But instead of Kim calling out my idiocy I'm greeted with her reverting to her stereotypical holier-than-thou have-some-insults posts. So I stopped giving a fuck.

[Aerozord]

I would argue that CYOA books qualify less as literature and more as games due to the interactivity level and the fact that you can effectively "lose" at the book by choosing the wrong option leading to the main character's death or any other number of "bad end" scenarios.

You're pretty much "playing" the book rather than merely reading a set narrative.

well, do you consider choose your own adventure books games?

No, are all video games "games" also no. However they are interactive storytelling, a more apt term for this context

[Kim]

well, do you consider choose your own adventure books games?

No, are all video games "games" also no. However they are interactive storytelling, a more apt term for this context

Also, "What defines a game?" would be pretty off-topic for this thread. I made it to talk about why I think Twine is great, to share some Twine stories with folks here, and to encourage folks to make and share their own Twine stories.

If you would like to draw arbitrary lines in the sand about what is allowed to be called a game and what isn't, please make your own thread for it.

[Terex4]

If you would like to draw arbitrary lines in the sand about what is allowed to be called a game and what isn't, please make your own thread for it.
Short version (from my standpoint) it qualifies for this particular subforum.

I'm glad you liked it, I wasn't sure how it was going to turn out. Hopefully it gives people some insight or helps someone else be a little more prepared for that stage of transition.

I can easily see this becoming an addiction of sorts >.>

[POS Industries]

well, do you consider choose your own adventure books games?
I'm pretty sure that's what I said in that post you quoted, yes.

They are paperback games. You play them. You win at them, you lose at them. They're games.

If you would like to draw arbitrary lines in the sand about what is allowed to be called a game and what isn't, please make your own thread for it.
POS Industries, please refrain from derailing this thread into an off-topic line of discussion. Consider this your first and only warning, and if you continue to defy us we will not be afraid to use harsher disciplinary action if you make it necessary. You're not above the law here, POS, no matter how cool and sexy you pretty much are all the time.

Oh, who am I kidding, I can't stay mad at you. Come here, you handsome devil!

[synkr0nized]

I love you, POS.

[Kim]

I can easily see this becoming an addiction of sorts >.>

I very much have an addiction to making Twine games. I don't finish most of the ones I start, but I really love making them. It's the pure joy of creation.

[synkr0nized]

I very much have an addiction to making Twine games. I don't finish most of the ones I start, but I really love making them. It's the pure joy of creation.

Nothing quite beats getting an idea down into something, be it a written product or whatever else. Like, for me, I love finally getting coding ideas done in a project, or at least "done" to a point that I can test a feature or see if the logic flows correctly. I only sometimes jot down the fiction ideas I have, and I regret that I don't do that more often.

In any case, while Twine isn't my cup of tea, I have had the impression that it's been a nice tool for you, at least in getting ideas out of your head in some fashion if not for sharing them with others.

That it lends itself towards sharing and having others experience the created works is certainly an additional benefit to the activity of using Twine. Is this a medium that is growing in popularity in the kinds of groups you mentioned in the OP?

With the risk of being tangential, I have been hearing that, thanks to how digital we are and the prevalence of eReaders, it's become more viable and possible for individuals to self-publish. While I am aware that will give us a lot of crap, I do honestly think it may lead to more authors' work getting attention that would otherwise never see readers.

[Solid Snake]

I'm not sure if I've played a single game on Twine that's really showed me what Twine's capable of. A lot of the entries I've seen so far seem very linear compared to most other CYOAs I've read, let alone modern roleplaying games. The quality of writing has varied, but I generally feel the Twine experiences have been too short to really leave a lasting impression.

...And that's a good thing!

Okay let me explain. With a Wall of Text of course, because I'm Snake.

When I was young(er) I wrote this (http://archiveofourown.org/works/208430/chapters/311273) and this (http://archiveofourown.org/works/208037/chapters/310466?view_adult=true) for another forum. At the height of its popularity, it had maybe a dozen followers? And FOREWARNING: It is stupid crappy videogame fanfiction, because yes, Solid Snake liked to write stupid crappy videogame fanfiction starring his videogame doppelganger.

ADDITIONAL SOCIAL-JUSTICE FOREWARNING: The link suggests I created the story last year but that's technically not true: In 2011 I just posted all the documentation I had saved onto the interwebs as something of an archive for a project that was already defunct. I mention this because I wrote that story after I identified as a liberal Democrat (not Conservative Snake) but before I became really attuned to my privilege and oppression and SJ issues (not Current Slightly more Tolerable Snake, etc.) So if you do actually want to read that piece of junk just be aware that I'm certain there's offensive shit buried in there, because I was blind to stuff and junk. There's a lot of things I've fond of there, but there's also a lot of moments in that story I wish I could retroactively erase from existence.

I'll get back to my stupid story later and tie that into Twine but I thought I'd share that CYOA attempt because A: You should all have a few laughs at my expense, goddamn I was / still am an awful writer and B: Twine's potential reminds me a lot of what I was trying to do years ago, but what I lacked the framework to pull off. I was trying to create an interactive experience there, like a game, with a narrative propelled by choices and integrating game mechanics (Persona's social links, etc.) into something I'd control. And there's a lot of little mechanics I've already seen in Twine games that remind me of what I was trying to achieve.

ANYWAY:

We've reached a point with conventional AAA-title videogames where we've been already with cinema and novels. After an initial period of experimentation everything's starting to settle down. Just like movies and books, we're seeing games increasingly rely on tropes and settle into arbitrary restrictions of predefined and familiar genres of storytelling. The next great RPG won't be so much an innovation as it is simply applying the base mechanics of Final Fantasy or Persona or Mass Effect to a new narrative framework.

The potential of Twine is what really excites me, because I don't think I've seen anything that really exploits what it's capable of. I haven't seen a project that utilizes Twine to try something as ambitious as Legend of Snake. Oh, I've definitely seen far better writing -- it's not difficult to beat me there -- but so far it's being told to tell short stories -- stories with strong artistic vision, but really only exploring a single character and a single theme -- instead of stories that'd rival Mass Effect or Persona.

I'm kind of excited to see the lengthier attempts, to be honest. Maybe that's just a byproduct of my love for Walls. I do want to see new, fascinating stories covering subjects I've never experienced in fiction before. And there's a lot about the mechanics of Twine that I'm unfamiliar with, so I'm not really sure if Twine's interface is really capable of utilizing it in the way I would before IRL shit has taken me away from considering it for creative projects.

But this is a very new, very accessible interactive medium that's in its infancy.
...And that's such a refreshing feeling. A broader base of writers are going to be able to explore themes that deviate from the standard norms in Hollywood and among AAA developers. I imagine the content has the potential to be more mature -- in the sexualized and thought-provoking sense, not the blood and gore sense. I imagine we'll see a much broader base of characters than the stereotypical grizzled balding white heterosexual male we're used to.

Beyond that, though, I'm also intrigued to see writers attempt to implement new mechanics through the interactivity. Will we see a new work attempt to replicate a variation of Persona's social links? Technically we already have, albeit in crude form, in "Queer Pirate Plane." Will we see stories actually deviate in meaningful ways, perhaps expanding upon the kinds of choices we can make in RPGs? I'm intrigued here because, since Twine doesn't require snazzy graphics artists or traditional shoot-'em-up gameplay, a single writer can essentially dedicate him or herself solely to creating the kinds of deep, fulfilling branching narratives we always dream of -- and that AAA games can't quite reach.

And really, it's the combination of game-like mechanics with progressive themes that has me intrigued. Imagine turning Persona 4 on its head with a similar premise featuring queer or minority characters. Or imagine taking Persona 4's exact premise -- complete with social links and an entitled male protagonist -- and then punishing him for making stereotypical privileged decisions by having the 'love interests' bite back with their own independent agency. Better yet, take the NPC of a videogame and tell the story from 'their' perspective, using the traditional limitations upon NPC agency as restrictions that hamper the player from achieving goals. Or, heck, imagine someone with the creative abilities and obsessive zeal of Andrew Hussie trying to create Homestuck but making it a true CYOA, with consistent game mechanics implemented in there so you actually felt a degree of control over that narrative's John Egbert or Rose Lalonde.

But, don't view this as belittling what people are doing with Twine now. What I've already seen is quite impressive. It's also possible that people are actually already doing things I'm talking about on Twine and I've just been merrily oblivious. I've only experienced eight or nine games.

But, this kind of stuff feels like Super Mario Brothers, and I'm just really excited about what Twine will be like once we reach its equivalent of Skyrim. Twine's childhood and its potential evolution will be fun to follow. I just regret it wasn't around to support my big narrative ideas back when I actually had the time and the energy to write them.

[Aerozord]

With the risk of being tangential, I have been hearing that, thanks to how digital we are and the prevalence of eReaders, it's become more viable and possible for individuals to self-publish. While I am aware that will give us a lot of crap, I do honestly think it may lead to more authors' work getting attention that would otherwise never see readers.

For some things yea but I dont think books are among them. You can self publish physical books rather easily and the barrier for getting a publisher to look at your work is pretty low. Just look at the crap that DOES get published. So I doubt many competent writers are left out in the cold. Though e-readers making reading more common, that could be a nice boon. I think one reason for the decline of books is in our digital age people find purchasing and carrying around physical text abit, you know

[Solid Snake]

So I doubt many competent writers are left out in the cold.

Hahahahahhaahahahahaha
Thanks Aero, I needed the laugh.

Major publishers rig the game from the get-go against new writers, agents are awful, and self-publishing isn't exactly easy or affordable.
The internet has eased things up a bit, at least insofar as a decent blogger has a chance of getting discovered, or someone with an insane work ethic like Andrew Hussie can make dreams come true while circumventing the middlemen.

If you lack artistic talent and you're writing a completely original novel -- or short stories -- you really have a mountain to climb.
I mean basically there's a reason why Christopher Paolini, who I happen to believe is an extremely awful writer, basically lucked out simply by virtue of happening to have parents who apparently own a publishing company.

[rpgdemon]

I generally feel the Twine experiences have been too short to really leave a lasting impression.

...And that's a good thing!

Yes! Maybe you don't need to devote a huge amount of text towards explaining an idea, and instead it's better to let the reader make connections themselves! It might even be more meaningful that way!

Okay let me explain. With a Wall of Text of course, because I'm Snake.

:(

[Solid Snake]

Hey now, there's an audience for people who like write longwinded diatribes.
Look at George R.R. Martin's fanbase!

EDIT: But oh God if you think anything I've typed on NPF is really that bad just take a look a those links I posted and then marvel at the fact that more than twelve people actually enjoyed that
THOSE were Snakeposts. NPF is amateur hour.

[stefan]

You can self publish physical books rather easily and the barrier for getting a publisher to look at your work is pretty low.

There is literally nothing in this statement that is remotely correct.

[synkr0nized]

Aero, I must respectfully disagree. A lot. Were I more interested, I could probably find numbers and sources to support my opinion moreso than refute it.

EDIT: But oh God if you think anything I've typed on NPF is really that bad just take a look a those links I posted and then marvel at the fact that more than twelve people actually enjoyed that
THOSE were Snakeposts. NPF is amateur hour.

At another forum I sometimes visit there's a poster whose average post would make yours look like the opening act for her show. She and I have a couple of times gotten in [good-natured] fights over her long-winded nature and my tendency to be the most succinct poster in that community.

Yours are definitely more interesting to read, regardless. :D

[Ryong]

Not to derail the thread but:

There is literally nothing in this statement that is remotely correct.

Surprisingly enough, here in Brazil a friend of mine found a place that lets you publish physical books rather easily - whenever someone buys the book off the site, they make a book and send to that person - with minimal costs. The problem lies on getting word out about the book.

[Ramary]

Man If that Dear Esther thing is considered a game, I don't see why not this stuff.

At least with this thing you can have choices, and text adventures like Zork were video games and were pretty alright.

Now there is an idea, I want someone to remake the Zork games on this thing.

[Kim]

Porpentine, my favorite person, just released another Twine game today.

CRY$TAL WARRIOR KE$HA (http://aliendovecote.com/uploads/twine/kesha.html#6)

[Kim]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/80952ff7a6635dcfbef6d6de961291cd/tumblr_mgl8u5uoMF1qmwop2o1_500.gif

BIG CHAOS TWINE JAM

make a Twine game over Sunday/Monday (here’s a tutorial). I’ll post them on Tuesday and still be taking submissions up until they get posted.

have fun!!!

OPTIONAL POWER THEME #1:

use this video game name generator (http://videogamena.me/) as inspiration

OPTIONAL POWER THEME #2: Use custom CSS (this controls the aesthetic appearance of HTML)

Here’s how!

1) Make a passage and put “stylesheet” in the tag section (the title can be whatever)

2) Do CSS! Don’t know CSS? That’s okay, just copy and paste CSS from other sources and modify it. All my games have their source available too if you want examples.

The best thing about CSS is you don’t need to know CSS. You can google “[stuff i wanna do] css” and you’ll probably find it real easy. Like, “background color css” or “fonts css” and stuff way more esoteric than that because CSS has been around forever.

list of twine css elements (http://gimcrackd.com/etc/doc/#customizing,appearance)

css references/tutorial (http://www.w3schools.com/css/default.asp)

BUT MOST OF ALL DO WHATEVER YOU WANT AND HAVE FUN

Link (http://maximummisandry.tumblr.com/post/40475820569/porpentine-big-chaos-twine-jam-make-a-twine) (To the post on my Tumblr because Porpentine's is NSFW)

I used the video game name generator and am thinking of using "Terrible Animal - The Dark Project" as the name for my submission.

Have at it and have fun, folks!

[Overcast]

On the matter of easily published books, I am reminded somewhat here of the old Zine subculture movement. Not sure if it is still active but back when I used to find published copybooks written by anonymous authors lying in public places, just cruddly little zerox stacks, typically poorly edited but an interesting enough read ranging from unsettling violence, torid sex tales, absolute idiocy, and deep personal grief. Just people tossing stories into the cold world for anyone to enjoy.

Now actually getting published on a wide scale is more difficult but aero may be thinking of this wrong. Meanwhile before I say anything about twine I guess I should read some.

[Kim]

Here's the completed version of my entry to the Chaos Twine Jam.

Terrible Animal: The Dark Project (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/106579376/terrible%20animal.html)

Warning: One ending has tentacle sex.

[phil_]

Ha! I managed to escape! Time to get hit by a car!

[Kim]

And here are all the other games that were submitted for the Twine Jam!! (http://aliendovecote.com/?p=3978)