"Hurtful Everyday Language And Common Vernacular" or "Retarded, N-Word"

[Seil]

So a friend on Facebook recently linked this picture:

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u59/Poetisch/10460498_763566617023151_1737414860465697360_n_zps a2afd0a1.jpg

It's a picture of a little girl holding up a sign stating that she doesn't like others using the word "retarded," and that she's beautiful on the inside. Which is fine, and true. This girl is rad.

I didn't take issue with any of it. I do like comedians, though, and I decided to post

oqiGWd0-0Os

Which was insensitive in context, I know, and led to an discussion about how "Retard" was a proper medical term (Mental Retardation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_disability)) that is used as an insult.

hl70ZJoF-GI

Now, these two acts (and I realize as I post this that this discussion will follow these two acts instead of western society as a whole) aren't descriptive of Western society as a whole, so here's some music:

MSrTnWDTdwI

[Marc v4.0]

Might be safer if we pack up our ten foot polls

[Seil]

Also, we already talked about this ages ago. (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=37352)

[Kim]

Like, I really dunno why people have problems with not using language that is primarily used to hurt people who are already mistreated.

If the slur applies to you then you can try and reclaim it like I try with slut and dyke, but you don't really get to use slurs that hurt groups of people you don't belong to. It's just shitty and hurtful.

Like, not using language like that is really the most basic form of respect and if you choose to use it then what you are saying is that you do not respect that group of people.

[Red Mage Black]

What does "reclaiming" words really do and how are you "reclaiming" them considering they were made by people using them hurtfully anyway? Reclaiming assumes the terms were never hurtful in the first place. Bitch was always meant for female dogs. Dyke... which I never understood how it came to mean what it does today... was for something like a dam. Just like faggot was a pile of sticks and nigger was meant to mean 'ignorant person'. I don't understand how half the words that are used 'as' hurtful were ever converted to mean such things as they don't even relate to the subjects they're intended to be used against.

I'm not suddenly going to get crucified for actually typing out the words, am I?

I also don't see the point in saying, "We can use it, but you can't," because I feel it runs counterproductive to the result you want to see. Which is, "People not using them at all." Saying something is alright for one set of people to do, but not another is completely hypocritical.

[Seil]

It's easy to avoid the issue and say that language should change to accommodate, but it's easier still for assholes to use a word inappropriately.

[Premmy]

What does "reclaiming" words really do and how are you "reclaiming" them considering they were made by people using them hurtfully anyway?
I've always viewed "Reclamation" as a concept to be an after-the fact explanation for something Black folks had always been doing, and or just white people continuing not to "get" shit, then doing it themselves(I.e. Appropriation)

Reclaiming assumes the terms were never hurtful in the first place."Reclaiming" as I've understood it is all about the negative connotations in that it's flipping it back to the majority. Essentially Staking one's identity in their own community and outsider status within "maintstream" society. 'Fuck you for saying I don't belong, I don't want to, you suck. I'l do my own thing with blackjack and hookers"

Bitch was always meant for female dogs. Dyke... which I never understood how it came to mean what it does today... was for something like a dam. Just like faggot was a pile of sticks and nigger was meant to mean 'ignorant person'. Well actually nigger comes from the various Romance languages term for "Black"(Noir, negro, negre, Niger) as well, as, you know, the actual places named Niger and Nigeria(which were named as such because of previous Latin-rooted terms for "black)

I don't understand how half the words that are used 'as' hurtful were ever converted to mean such things as they don't even relate to the subjects they're intended to be used against.


They're about the social dynamics. Words mean nothing outside of context within society as a whole. The words are used in conjunction and as part of major oppression within society and thus are negative.

I'm not suddenly going to get crucified for actually typing out the words, am I?
"Crucified"? No, some people may say some general purpose mean things to you, but that's life, it happens all the time, to everyone, sometimes for no reason. Learning to move past it and focus on what's important is a part of life and growing up.

I also don't see the point in saying, "We can use it, but you can't," because I feel it runs counterproductive to the result you want to see
Which is, "People not using them at all." The result people want to see is "Not being treated like shit" Which includes but is not limited "People treating me the way I would like to be treated within reasonable social norms" I.e. "As long as it doesn't hurt you, don't hurt me" A.K.A. The Golden Motherfucking Rule.

Saying something is alright for one set of people to do, but not another is completely hypocritical.
"To everything a season"
It's called nuance, kid. Moral Absolutes is how we got here in the first place.

[Token]

What does "reclaiming" words really do and how are you "reclaiming" them considering they were made by people using them hurtfully anyway? Reclaiming assumes the terms were never hurtful in the first place. Bitch was always meant for female dogs. Dyke... which I never understood how it came to mean what it does today... was for something like a dam. Just like faggot was a pile of sticks and nigger was meant to mean 'ignorant person'. I don't understand how half the words that are used 'as' hurtful were ever converted to mean such things as they don't even relate to the subjects they're intended to be used against.

I'm not suddenly going to get crucified for actually typing out the words, am I?

I also don't see the point in saying, "We can use it, but you can't," because I feel it runs counterproductive to the result you want to see. Which is, "People not using them at all." Saying something is alright for one set of people to do, but not another is completely hypocritical.

BUT Y IS IT NO OKAY FOR ME A WHITE TO CALL PEOPLE NIGGER??????

MALCOM TEN DIDNT DIE FOR THIS

EVERYONE KNOWS NIGGER JUST MEANS IGNORANT PERSON
NOT LIKE THATS A BULLSHIT EXCUSE MADE TO "JUSTIFY" BILLY-BOB CRACKAFACE TO KEEP SAYING IT

[Nikose Tyris]

Queer is a slur. Queer is also the umbrella term for everyone who is not a Cishet. I can refer to myself as queer, I have that right, because I am not a cishet. I do not have the right to refer to Kim with that word. I prefer not to use the word in general though, knowing that some (many) hold the term as abusive, insulting, or dehumanizing.

Take that logic, and insert -any other word-. It summarizes the three general questions of if a term should be used. Are you, the speaker, a person who has been subjected to the term? Is the term used in an accurate yet derogatory manner against you - i.e. racial epithets or references to physical impairments? Are you willing to risk making someone else uncomfortable from memories and/or insulted by your use of said slur?

The General White Populous has nothing to reclaim. (Ashkenazi Jewish, Irish, etc do have claims - but only for terminology and treatment used against them. Also, holy shit do Ashkenazi jews have claim) The Hetero/Allosexual populace likewise have no reason to use slurs.

I picked Queer specifically in my example because it's one of the more gray area ones; Some people don't consider it a slur at all, and just a broadly known umbrella term. (MOGII is getting popular lately, and it's a bit more fun to say anyway. Plus it saves on the whole LGBTQI2AA+ recitation).


I have been that asshole, and I apologize. I do not want to be that asshole anymore. I do my best not to fuck up and be that asshole. Don't be that asshole yourself.

Edit: My wife is Mizrahi Jewish Heritage, and was the person who told me about Ashkenazi Jewish receiving similar treatment to Mizrahi jewish. I wanted to cite my source on that, since I am otherwise unfamiliar with the community and am repeating, quite possibly, out of bounds.

[Premmy]

BUT Y IS IT NO OKAY FOR ME A WHITE TO CALL PEOPLE NIGGER??????

ML2K DIDNT DIE FOR THIS

EVERYONE KNOWS NIGGER JUST MEANS IGNORANT PERSON
NOT LIKE THATS A BULLSHIT EXCUSE MADE TO "JUSTIFY" BILLY-BOB CRACKAFACE TO KEEP SAYING IT

Fixed that for you.

[pochercoaster]

I also don't see the point in saying, "We can use it, but you can't," because I feel it runs counterproductive to the result you want to see. Which is, "People not using them at all." Saying something is alright for one set of people to do, but not another is completely hypocritical.

White people want everything, including the right to use hurtful language.

Like, I've never desired the right to use racial slurs, and I don't understand white people who want to. It's like they're saying "Heh, I can say that too! I can do anything! Neener!" Of things that I can't do, I'm pretty okay with not using racial slurs, and you should be too. Is this the hill you want to die on? Do you really wanna be that guy?

Also, faggot comes from the fact that homosexuals used to be burned at the stake, along with "witches."

Edit: And retard is used perjoratively in everyday language, so yeah it's a pretty shitty thing to call someone if you've ever observed how mentally disabled people are treated like they're subhuman 99% of the time.

Edit 2: Also, I'm just going to leave some posts from RacismSchool here. Post 1. (http://racismschool.tumblr.com/post/19403718398/nigger-nigga-the-n-word-and-you) Post 2. (http://racismschool.tumblr.com/post/19451295994/nigger-the-definition)

Edit 3:

Just like faggot was a pile of sticks and nigger was meant to mean 'ignorant person'.

Seriously read this. (http://racismschool.tumblr.com/post/19451295994/nigger-the-definition)

[Kim]

Saying something is alright for one set of people to do, but not another is completely hypocritical.

Aside from other stuff that's been said by people better than I ever could I just wanna touch on this.

An important part of language is CONTEXT. This is often meant in terms of the particular sentence or such, but also applies to who is saying what. A het guy calling someone else a faggot is a completely different context than a gay guy using it for himself, or using it for other gay guys who are comfortable with it.

To claim that's hypocritical is to deny that context is an important part of language. Which would be an ignorant thing to do.

EDIT: Also, like, calling myself a slut? That feels fucking POWERFUL. It's like, "Hell yeah I like sex! I'm gonna do a million sex! Whoo!" Someone else calling me a slut? That's a completely different feeling. Sometimes I like that feeling, when I want someone I'm close to to degrade me but it's not something to just be thrown around all willy nilly. Calling myself a dyke also feels fucking powerful cuz it's like "YEAH I'M LESBIAN AS HELL AND YOU CAN'T STOP ME NOBODY CAN STOP ME" which is a good feeling cuz there are people who say I don't get to be a lesbian cuz of being trans.

[pochercoaster]

To build upon Kim's post: (Ninja'd by it, actually)

I abhor the word slut when used as an insult. Like 99% of women, I have been called a slut (and a whore) for things as innocuous as walking to the grocery store in a skirt. When used as an insult, it's deeply hurtful. And when you examine what the word means, all it's designed to do is hurt women for merely having sexuality. Because the word is so arbitrarily applied- people call women sluts no matter if they're virginal, sexually active with one partner, or promiscuous- you see it's just meant to be a catch-all term for hurting women. Furthermore, a woman having consensual sex is not anything that should be considered worthy of disdain.

However, sometimes women may apply the word to themselves, as a way of embracing their own sexuality, because why should a woman be ashamed of her sexuality? Why not even be proud of who you are, when you were raised to be ashamed of your body and your sexuality? In this context, slut is not an insult. However, using the word slut in this context is not something that you can force upon anyone- it's something someone chooses for themselves. So, you can't just throw this word around and say it doesn't hurt anyone because some women reclaimed the word for themselves.

And, like, I can't talk about racial slurs cause I'm not equipped to, and I don't want to say it's the same thing as gendered slurs, but I kind of view racial slurs similarly: you can use them if they apply to you. If they don't apply to you, stay the hell away from them, because you're just gonna end up hurting someone, and making an ass of yourself.

[Aerozord]

Everyone can say anything. I am very much anti-censorship. Words are not taboo nor are they inherently hurtful. Language is evolving and what offends or is meant to offend changes over time. You cannot control language nor should you. Ban a word and new ones will be created to take its place, because if they want to insult someone they will find a way. If you personally feel certain words should not be said it is a personal choice. Language will change because people no longer wish to use a word, not because you forcibly regulate it. If anything that will maintain it in the lexicon the same way swear words are preserved specifically because they are taboo

I do not get mad at someone for using a word, I get mad at a person trying to hurt or belittle another human being.

[pochercoaster]

So, where is the censorship and forcible regulation of these words? It's not illegal to say a racial slur. Criticizing someone because they use racial slurs is NOT the same as censorship. It's free speech in response to free speech. If you don't wanna be criticized for insulting people then don't insult people.

I do not get mad at someone for using a word, I get mad at a person trying to hurt or belittle another human being.

This is exactly what slurs are supposed to do. If you think it's not I dare you to go around calling people slurs IRL. (Please don't actually do that.) See how long that lasts for you.

[Kim]

Being asked to maintain a basic level of respect by not saying hurtful slurs is not censorship.

Maybe you haven't gotten a bunch of hateful messages calling you a faggot who deserves to be murdered in the street Aero. And if you have you haven't gotten them specifically for your queerness. Maybe you haven't had people calling you an ugly tranny. And if you did, it can't have remotely hurt as much because you're not trans.

You don't have to regularly deal with people throwing around words they think are Oh So Fun To Use that are words that specifically exist to hurt You because of your gender or sexuality. And if you don't see how people who have experienced that feel actual pain seeing them thrown around casually by the same sorts of people who use those words to hurt them, then you are lacking a very basic level of human empathy.

And that's fucking tragic.

[Aerozord]

If a word hurts you than be upset. I am saying intent is what matters. Retarded wasn't originally an insult, it was just a medical term. Gay used to mean "happy". White trash used to be a horribly offensive term.

If someone means no harm when they say a word I see no reason in getting upset at them. Though I don't get mad at people hurting me on accident. Might not be happy about it, but it only upsets me when people mean harm.

[Kim]

It's not on accident when you know those words hurt and you choose to keep using them because "Well I didn't mean faggot that way." It is the very opposite of accident. You know those words hurt. You still use those words by deliberate choice. You have literally chosen to hurt someone by doing so.

If someone SEES YOUR FOOT THERE and chooses to step there such that THEY STEP ON YOUR FOOT because they just REALLY WANTED TO STAND THERE are you really going to call it an accident, no biggy, you didn't mean to step on my foot you just decided to step on my foot.

[Marc v4.0]

Yeah, Aerodude, someone getting upset because you dropped the N word or called someone a slur, or asking that you not use those words because they are hurtful or insulting is not censorship. They are not a government, media or authoritative body suppressing your speech under threat of duress.

[Aerozord]

It's not on accident when you know those words hurt and you choose to keep using them because "Well I didn't mean faggot that way." It is the very opposite of accident. You know those words hurt. You still use those words by deliberate choice. You have literally chosen to hurt someone by doing so.

This is why I personally do not use such words. Though I have seen people use words for sarcasm or even terms of endearment. A much milder form. A friend does something silly and you call him an idiot. That word is insulting of course, it implies a lack of intelligence. However it was not meant to convey malice but if anything to bolster the humor of your friends action.

Your own example, as was stated, means "a small bundle of sticks" it is only insulting because people put a negative meaning behind that word. Again, gay meant "happy" the opposite of an insult but many use it like one. Opposite end, while not so common anymore people using "bad" to mean good. Its whats behind the words, not the words.

[Marc v4.0]

If a word hurts you than be upset. I am saying intent is what matters. Retarded wasn't originally an insult, it was just a medical term. Gay used to mean "happy". White trash used to be a horribly offensive term.

If someone means no harm when they say a word I see no reason in getting upset at them. Though I don't get mad at people hurting me on accident. Might not be happy about it, but it only upsets me when people mean harm.

It's not on accident when you know those words hurt and you choose to keep using them because "Well I didn't mean faggot that way." It is the very opposite of accident. You know those words hurt. You still use those words by deliberate choice. You have literally chosen to hurt someone by doing so.

This is basic fucking shit, Aero. Kids can understand this concept on the first explanation and literally YEARS have been spent at this sort of conversation and you're still dragging that tired fucking excuse of 'Well, *I* just don't see what the problem is, so it shouldn't be one' Meaningful conversation is stalled and entire threads killed into a spiral of shitposting all because someone, invariably, cannot understand that a word or action isn't any less harmful or insulting just because of ignorance or intent.

No one gives a shit if you didn't mean a slur or an insult harmfully because it's not for you to fucking decide how or when it is hurtful!

KIDS, Aero! GODDAMN CHILDREN UNDERSTAND THIS!

All words used to mean other things all the way back to the first fucking grunt, and words evolve over time and change and there is typically NO GETTING THEM BACK. There is a reason no one uses that word for a bundle of sticks anymore, and it is because some asshole decided to use it as a homosexual slur. It's not going to just drop back into popular vernacular as a word for kindling, that's gone now.

[rpgdemon]

This is why I personally do not use such words.

Who are you arguing for, and why are you so supportive of them that you would say terrible things on their behalf, then?

[Marc v4.0]

Lately all I ever see Devil's Advocate used for is 'I want to express this shitty opinion but I also what a good out of consequences when I am called on it'.

[rpgdemon]

Even if Devil's Advocate is being used to say, "Well, SOMETIMES this other thing happens that means that the thing can be bad!" (Eg, saying in regards to feminism, "Well, some guys are abused too!"), the question still applies. You're still just defending bad people because you are bored and think it is an interesting argument to get into.

[Kim]

This is why I personally do not use such words. Though I have seen people use words for sarcasm or even terms of endearment. A much milder form. A friend does something silly and you call him an idiot. That word is insulting of course, it implies a lack of intelligence. However it was not meant to convey malice but if anything to bolster the humor of your friends action.

What words used to mean isn't really relevant. How they are used now is. When the last person who uses faggot in a negative way is dead and buried, you can see about using it to talk about your bundle of sticks again.

The thing is, this applies to everyone. Everyone who intentionally uses slurs that exist to hurt oppressed groups to which they don't belong. They aren't hurting anyone accidentally. The decision to take actions THEY KNOW WILL HURT is part of their intent.

Right now, there's a big old conversation going on in queer communities about how cis gay dudes feel entitled to throw around words like tranny and shemale. You know, words that specifically exist to hurt trans women. All sorts of popular gay male icons are defending it, because when you really get right down to it Dan Savage and RuPaul have zero respect for trans women.

This is the same tired shit that gets brought up again and again and again because people can't understand the basic fucking lesson of not being a dick. And this is what you're defending. And quite honestly, I find it infuriating that you would do so.

These people fucking KNOW tranny is a hurtful word. Just like everyone knows that all these other slurs we've been talking about are hurtful. And if you somehow made it through childhood without finding out, then it takes ONE TIME of someone telling you, "Hey, this is a fucking offensive slur. Don't use it." to realize oh this word hurts people who are shit on by society already maybe I shouldn't add to that.

When you choose to step where you know someone's foot is, you have chosen to step on their foot. And quite frankly, I hope you get punched in the face for it.

[Fenris]

Nobody's quite over the line yet, but we're approaching it at warp speed. If we could try to take this discussion in the other direction, that'd be swell.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

This is why I personally do not use such words. Though I have seen people use words for sarcasm or even terms of endearment. A much milder form. A friend does something silly and you call him an idiot. That word is insulting of course, it implies a lack of intelligence. However it was not meant to convey malice but if anything to bolster the humor of your friends action.


What does this have to do with anything in this thread?
If you and your friends are comfortable with one another to the extent that you can throw insults back and forth, fine. I'm like that with my friends too. But guess what? If my friends tell me not to use a word. If that word actually fucking hurts them, I don't use it! And why? Because putting my desire to use a word over the feelings of another person is a shitty thing to do.

Nobody is trying to censor you. Nobody is trying to pass a law saying you can't use the word. They're just telling you that the words hurt, that they have incredibly negative connotations and implications that are drawn up by using them. And if you really give so little of a shit about that, where you value it so minutely that it goes below your ability to use a word that is entirely fucking interchangeable with others then good for you. Go about your business.

[Red Mage Black]

Great so, in 'taking it back', how is it empowering? Are you trying to use it to the point that it's ruined for bigots? To me, it gives them the delusion thinking they're right and justified in using the words and since it's hurtful in the context of when they use it instead.

I'm going to clarify a bit on what I meant by, "It's hypocritical."

Like how it works in bigotry, it's being exclusionary. Only at this point, you're singling yourself out rather than them doing it to you. This is why I personally think labels of any kind are stupid, because at that point it is saying, "This is the one thing that defines me," and that there is absolutely nothing interesting about you otherwise. You shouldn't take only one facet of your person and make it your sole identity.

You're transsexual? Cool. You're a lesbian? Nothing wrong with that, everybody needs to get love into their life from somewhere. You like sex? Who doesn't? There are other important things besides just those. Where do you work? Do you enjoy it? How was your day? Where are you from? Do you like where you live? Do you have a lot of friends? Cool, do you like all of them? There are so many other things people are interested about other people and some have to make it all about only a single aspect of it.

After a while it starts to become a high school clique where you exclude all the people who aren't 'like you' and it gives rise to all the bullshit like this:

http://oi61.tinypic.com/a3k26g.jpg

Apparently, I rate at a +65. Only because there isn't an 'average' in the attractiveness category and I had to do Non-Religious because there was no Wiccan in the Religion category.

Apparently I missed a lot of conversation while I was doing this up and finding the picture.


But I don't want to exacerbate this any further, so if we're going to move on to hurtful words, lets instead talk less about slurs and more about things people say about different groups of people. First category, Pedophiles:

Yes, they exist and there seems to be a huge consensus of, "they should be killed," or "we should castrate them all." What I don't think people realize is, that by saying all of this, the people who DO wish to seek help for it won't because of the stigma. That those very same people are the reason why a good lot of them still exist. They won't because of fear of being beaten or killed in the street, even when they haven't touched a child. I've heard people so much as say that, "If someone were to kill a pedo in broad daylight, no one would stop them. Not even the police." Unfortunately? If it's a known fact of what they are, then it's true.

But for the ones that do harm children, how far is too far? The only thing I can reasonably think of is if someone willingly murders their victim. Hell, even if it's only on accident.

Though honestly, I think this goes for a lot of mental disorders that exist. The things that are said about schizophrenics, autistics, those with PTSD and Anxiety. Stigmatization of any mental disorder, really. People with these fear what will happen if others find out they have them and society has been taught to fear anyone that isn't normal. In body or mind.


As for everyone jumping down Aero's throat for having a differing viewpoint? There's a whole lotta rage and vitriol flying around and you're essentially adding absolutely nothing to the topic.


EDIT: To add commentary to that privilege score chart above, they missed "Body Modification", a thing some people tend to overlook with how people are unfairly judged. Tattoos, Piercings, Hair Dye, so on and so forth. Same thing with clothing style and accessories, such as glasses, hair accessories, rings, necklaces, wristbands, arm bangles and anklets.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Like how it works in bigotry, it's being exclusionary. Only at this point, you're singling yourself out rather than them doing it to you. This is why I personally think labels of any kind are stupid, because at that point it is saying, "This is the one thing that defines me," and that there is absolutely nothing interesting about you otherwise. You shouldn't take only one facet of your person and make it your sole identity.


First I just wanna say, to the comment about it being "The one thing that defines me", no. Absolutely not. Terms like Trans, Bisexual, homosexual, all serve to establish one particular thing about a person. Nobody who says they are homosexual believes that is all that there is about themselves, but it's a damn sight easier to say "I am a homosexual" than "I am attracted to those of the same gender as myself."


Now, RMB I'm going to make some assumptions about you, please tell me if I am wrong and I will correct myself. But do you think, possibly, that you find the use of labels to be stupid because you don't really need one yourself? Almost ever?

You, like a wide majority of the world, are not Trans, or have a sexuality other than hetero. So it is stupid to you to need a label for those things, because you've never needed one yourself. It's quite possible that you've never actually even had a conversation that involved identifying yourself in those terms. There's nothing wrong with that, but... can you also kind of see why someone who isn't in the same category might prefer to have a term of identification for that portion of their identity, rather than just being 'Abnormal'?

I've literally seen the conversation play out where someone explained that they were Transsexual, and the person opposites response was "Oh! That's great, Um, I'm normal."
There wasn't malice behind it. There wasn't a hint of hatred in that person for the one they were speaking to, they just... literally had no idea what else to even say about it. No conception of terms like trans, cis, bisexual, queer, whatever. Just... two categories, "Normal" and... everything else. Which is pretty much the world without labels. The majority gets to identify as normal, and everyone else is kind of fucked six ways to Sunday.

[Marc v4.0]

As for everyone jumping down Aero's throat for having a differing viewpoint? There's a whole lotta rage and vitriol flying around and you're essentially adding absolutely nothing to the topic.

It was 100% because his posts were just terrible and dismissive while hiding behind a 'Devil's Advocate' shield, which is bullshit and should be called bullshit because calling things bullshit that are is actually useful to keeping the topic at hand clear of, guess what, yeah -bullshit-.

I'd really, truly, honestly much rather counter that bullshit with great points and top notch debate, seriously, but I think it's been made really clear that it would be a tremendous waste of time and effort to get everything picked apart and taken out of context or straight up ignored and misrepresented. It's been a long ass time at this with no headway, sometimes you just get tired of seeing bad posts and bad faith.

[Red Mage Black]

First I just wanna say, to the comment about it being "The one thing that defines me", no. Absolutely not. Terms like Trans, Bisexual, homosexual, all serve to establish one particular thing about a person. Nobody who says they are homosexual believes that is all that there is about themselves, but it's a damn sight easier to say "I am a homosexual" than "I am attracted to those of the same gender as myself."

Now, RMB I'm going to make some assumptions about you, please tell me if I am wrong and I will correct myself. But do you think, possibly, that you find the use of labels to be stupid because you don't really need one yourself? Almost ever?

I don't need a label because I don't wish to be judged on a single aspect of my life. That's exactly what attaching labels to yourself is doing, intended or not. Within the first few seconds of meeting someone, you have already made a judgment about what kind of person they are. Same goes with social networking, it just makes it a whole lot easier to judge someone without having met them. If you throw around the fact that you're this or that, just that one single thing, you're inviting people to judge you based solely upon that aspect of your person.

This isn't to say people shouldn't share who they are though. Freedom of expression is a great thing. Just not act as if that is the only part of their being that matters. In fact, being judged by people isn't entirely avoidable either way. Even your interests are subject to scrutiny.


You, like a wide majority of the world, are not Trans, or have a sexuality other than hetero. So it is stupid to you to need a label for those things, because you've never needed one yourself. It's quite possible that you've never actually even had a conversation that involved identifying yourself in those terms. There's nothing wrong with that, but... can you also kind of see why someone who isn't in the same category might prefer to have a term of identification for that portion of their identity, rather than just being 'Abnormal'?

Hetero? No, but considering I'm not the former, I'm sure it doesn't matter. What type of situation are you talking about that might need you to identify like that anyway? Typically, trans or not, you fill out m or f on a sheet of paper(and some with the category of not answering the question or "Other"). The only one I can think of is conversations with a physician's office or something. I can't see why it would need to come up in normal conversation anyway. People don't normally bring up their sexuality if it isn't part of the current subject.


I've literally seen the conversation play out where someone explained that they were Transsexual, and the person opposites response was "Oh! That's great, Um, I'm normal."
There wasn't malice behind it. There wasn't a hint of hatred in that person for the one they were speaking to, they just... literally had no idea what else to even say about it. No conception of terms like trans, cis, bisexual, queer, whatever. Just... two categories, "Normal" and... everything else. Which is pretty much the world without labels. The majority gets to identify as normal, and everyone else is kind of fucked six ways to Sunday.

I wasn't talking about it like, "They shouldn't say they're this," what I was saying was, "They shouldn't act like it's the only thing about them that matters." We're trying to treat everyone like human beings, right? That means they also have interests, hobbies, possibly a job and friends. To me, labels are just attempting to separate yourself from everybody else, when the fact is, you're human, too. (Not sure what to say about the otherkin, furries and fictives though.)


I'd really, truly, honestly much rather counter that bullshit with great points and top notch debate, seriously, but I think it's been made really clear that it would be a tremendous waste of time and effort to get everything picked apart and taken out of context or straight up ignored and misrepresented. It's been a long ass time at this with no headway, sometimes you just get tired of seeing bad posts and bad faith.

Then the question becomes, why are you even here then if you have absolutely zero intention of adding to the discussion? The only thing I'm seeing is insulting and belittling the opposition and attempting to shame them into not posting their viewpoint anymore. It's not just here, it's every discussion thread I see you in. You're certainly allowed to have an opinion but if that is your goal, it is better not to post. Because its already been pointed out ad nauseum, Trying to make people feel bad is not cool."

[Marc v4.0]

Then the question becomes, why are you even here then if you have absolutely zero intention of adding to the discussion? The only thing I'm seeing is insulting and belittling the opposition and attempting to shame them into not posting their viewpoint anymore. It's not just here, it's every discussion thread I see you in. You're certainly allowed to have an opinion but if that is your goal, it is better not to post. Because its already been pointed out ad nauseum, Trying to make people feel bad is not cool."

I'm here and posting because this is a public forum I don't owe you any sort of justification for participating in it.

[Red Mage Black]

Ah yes, a classic cop-out, "It's a free internet". That doesn't give you any right to insult or belittle anyone because they don't agree with you. When you're trying to stand up for Feminism and Women's rights and all you do is spout hypocrisy by trying to silence the opposition. This is only compounded by the fact you add absolutely nothing to any discussion aside from reiterating everything Kim says in an insulting manner. I'm sick and tired of seeing the way they allow you to bully people.

[Marc v4.0]

Ah yes, a classic cop-out, "It's a free internet". That doesn't give you any right to insult or belittle anyone because they don't agree with you. When you're trying to stand up for Feminism and Women's rights and all you do is spout hypocrisy by trying to silence the opposition. This is only compounded by the fact you add absolutely nothing to any discussion aside from reiterating everything Kim says in an insulting manner. I'm sick and tired of seeing the way they allow you to bully people.

It was 100% because his posts were just terrible and dismissive while hiding behind a 'Devil's Advocate' shield, which is bullshit and should be called bullshit because calling things bullshit that are is actually useful to keeping the topic at hand clear of, guess what, yeah -bullshit-.


For the rest..Ok, sure, whatever man.

[Red Mage Black]

I'm just going to act like I don't care.
Fixed that for you.

AKA, that excuse is complete bullshit.

[Fenris]

Will you two just shut the fuck up and make out already?

Seriously though, this is literally the exact thing I told y'all not to do and here you are doing it.

Stop doing that thing. Discuss the topic or stop posting in the thread. This is not a request.

[Red Mage Black]

Well, I did post a topic related to the discussion. I'm just waiting on the replies for it.

[Token]

itt privilege doesnt exist because i dont want to think about it and its totally okay for me to call people retarded nigger faggots because words dont ever harm people but if you disagree YOU BETTER STOP BULLYING PEOPLE WITH YOUR MEAN WORDS

---------- Post added at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:08 PM ----------

now im just playing devils advocate but all white people need to die immediately


ACTUAL SERIOUS ISSUE: can we not double post anymore that is nowhere near as much fun

i for one reject this change

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

That escalated quickly!

[Kim]

I think we all need to take a moment to recognize that RMB took a thread about how you shouldn't use slurs that don't apply to you and tried to make it about how we need to be nicer to pedophiles.

I want you to just sit and stew on it for a bit. Let it really sink in. Take it and swish it about in your mouth like a wine, and then spit it out.

...

...

...

As for the rest, it feels empowering to use a word meant to degrade me to be like "Yeah, I'm fucking awesome! I love sex! I love girls!" Like, I explained that earlier. It makes me feel good to take this word meant to hurt me and be like, HELL YEAH I AM A SLUT AND I LOVE IT.

But that doesn't make being called a slut by other people less degrading when I have not consented to them doing so.

And as for defining myself by aspects of my identity? I don't really. Not in the way you're putting it. But being trans does affect my life in a lot of ways. It affects ways in which I'm comfortable with my body and sexuality. It means sometimes I look in the mirror and despite looking the same as a day I thought I looked hot I suddenly see all the facets of my appearance that are Wrong and it hurts. It means being misgendered in public if I don't "pass" well enough. It means being scared to be out in public by myself because there are people who would harass and abuse me if I didn't have Kit or Mick with me. It means all the little tiny ways that daily life as a trans woman hurts or otherwises affects my life in general, and that adds up.

My sexuality is a pretty big part of my life too. It isn't just a matter of preference like ice cream. It affects who I flirt with, how I interact with people, how I'm perceived by others, so on and so forth.

So yeah, recognizing the degree to which aspects of who I am affect my life isn't defining myself by them. They're a part of me. And by that alone they effect the rest of my life.

[Marc v4.0]

I think we all need to take a moment to recognize that RMB took a thread about how you shouldn't use slurs that don't apply to you and tried to make it about how we need to be nicer to pedophiles.


I honestly didn't even know what to say about this, it was just so completely out of nowhere. On top of the obvious issues with the topic itself, it's also got "Well, I don't like the topic of this thread and have decided we aren't going to talk about it anymore!" going for it.

[pochercoaster]

ITT we re center the discussion on the feelings of white doods. And pedophiles, apparently, which have nothing to do with the original topic. Incidentally, NPF is a much nicer place with Aero and RMB on ignore.

We've been having these discussions for several years. It's not so bad when there are actual legitimate points brought up, or when people change their mind, but (and this is why I took such a long break and don't participate as much anymore) one gets rather sick of seeing the same pro racist and pro sexist shit over and over.

[Red Mage Black]

And this forum is apparently about shutting up opposing viewpoints because of "feelings". The pedophiles bit was also talking about people with mental disorders. Glad you three could cherrypick that one part of my post.

---------- Post added at 07:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------

ITT we re center the discussion on the feelings of white doods. And pedophiles, apparently, which have nothing to do with the original topic. Incidentally, NPF is a much nicer place with Aero and RMB on ignore.


Silencing opposing viewpoints, how original.

---------- Post added at 07:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 PM ----------

Not to fucking mention it had nothing to do with race.

[Token]

i just wanna call people niggers

what does that have to do with race

ugh dumb niggers and their feelings

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

i just wanna call people niggers

what does that have to do with race

ugh dumb niggers and their feelings

http://i.imgur.com/KMWhM13.gif

[Krylo]

Just gonna close this thread for now.

Everyone who isn't Kim and Pochercoaster think about how you could have maybe handled your tones better and with less cussing and assholishness.

I'm not sure who (if anyone) will get warnings for this yet. I'll leave that to the actual mods.

[Satan's Onion]

Okay, a couple of things:

Token--just because a thread is likely to go right to hell is not an open invitation to poop all over it.
Marc--you're a cool dude in general, but I feel like you go from zero to completely exasperated really quickly when it comes to topics like this. Maybe next time, you ought to step away before getting to that point? You said yourself that it's not likely you're convincing anyone you're talking to.