Undertale is breaking my heart. [Archive] - The Warring States of NPF

Overcast

10-03-2015, 08:08 AM

Since we have a pretty hefty group of at least former Homestuckers you folks may be familiar with Toby Radiation Fox, he was one of the most prolific and ultimately the leading man in many of the Homestuck albums and was pretty consistently my favorite dude on the tracks. Maybe you were aware of him before Homestuck, in that case good for you.

You'd know about his enjoyment of Earthbound, how he made a Romhack for it once upon a time, and has made music remixes of its tracks before.

Back in 2013 he tossed out a kickstarter for him to make a game called Undertale, wanted only $5000, met that very shortly after and worked all the way up to around 50k. It was delivered as a game where you didn't have to kill anyone, which had a unique combat system where you had to defend yourself by dodging like a Touhou topdown shooter. Attacking would still be an option, but would come with some measure of reflection on someone who uses violence to solve their problems. It also boasted some degree of 4th wall leaning, with the idea of EXP, LVL, and Saving being concepts that are more than just mechanics but a part of the world itself.

With no doubt they delivered on all fronts with their mission statement, and have put out a powerful RPG that if you can get into its mechanics may well touch you as deeply as it has touched me. As well as delivering that historically pretty damn good Tobyfox tunes.

I honestly don't want to say anything more about it, but the demo is free online at their main website, it is also hilariously tiny. So try it out, and for god sakes if you enjoy it drop some dollars on it.

This game deserves all the attention and praise I can toss at it.

Revising Ocelot

10-03-2015, 11:48 AM

Bullet hell and shmups are not my thing, so I'm avoiding. But I may have gifted it to a few people. I would pretty much describe it as a Homestuck RPG in how it gets meta about gaming concepts, but luckily with none of the actual bullshit of Homestuck itself. (plus, y'know, that actual Homestuck game will probably end up never getting made, chalk up another KS failure)

Loyal

10-03-2015, 05:05 PM

(plus, y'know, that actual Homestuck game will probably end up never getting made, chalk up another KS failure)

Not to give any credit to the productivity of Homestuck, but allegedly the money was legit stolen. (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1075244) Which is rather unfortunate, to say the least.

Revising Ocelot

10-03-2015, 05:29 PM

Precisely what I was referring to, actually.

Overcast

10-03-2015, 07:34 PM

To be fair to the game Ocelot, the bullet hell concepts therein are not quite like hard mode japan level stuff. It requires some thought and responsiveness, but overall with a few exceptions it isn't horribly difficult. Even if it isn't your thing I'd still suggest trying out the demo to see if it hooks you.

I'd try to distance it a bit from Homestuck if I could though it is just where I know Toby from. The way he executes his method of meta bullshit is less complicated and awkward on the surface, but includes a depth that is comparible to Dark Souls. Though instead of delivering it via relics and flavor textits presented as very floaty self awareness that comes across in multiple attempts and playthroughs. Only you and two other characters are particularly aware of the game elements after all, so a lot comes from the main character his or herself.

Nikose Tyris

10-03-2015, 07:38 PM

I would like to personally and publically thank RO for ruining my life with this game.

Overcast

10-03-2015, 07:46 PM

See, you should totally play it.

Solid Snake

10-04-2015, 09:03 PM

Unfortunately, I watched a Let's Play of it before adding it to my wishlist (and thanks for the gift, RO!) so it's a little frustrating to actually have a major twist in the prologue spoiled for me...I'd strongly recommend, well, *not* spoiling it if you can avoid doing so.

Regardless, I'm probably going to try a 'Dark Neutral' playthrough where I just barely skirt the line above pure evil first, then go back a second time and do all the right things.
The first time will be tragic, but it should be: I'll play it like I play every other RPG first for maximum impact.

Overcast

10-04-2015, 09:31 PM

Pretty good. Mild spoiler if you end up seeing the words, "But nobody came." when you get a random encounter you have gone too far. This is important if you want to not go full evil, there are things about the genocide path that are...irreversible.

Arhra

10-05-2015, 09:28 AM

I definitely recommend going for a neutral playthrough first. Makes the Undyne fight INTENSE.

I... I'm a monster.

Aerozord

10-07-2015, 09:10 PM

After seeing a few lets plays of it (not too far in of course)

I am considering doing one myself of a complete genocide run. Why? Because there is a clear social pressure to do pacifists runs of this for a lets play and I like being deviant

Overcast

10-08-2015, 01:56 PM

Don't feel too pressured, the best starting run without exterior pressure is probably a neutral run, but I went pacifist because I have too much heart. And when you get there you honestly don't want to touch the game. For reasons.

I would advise against a full Genocide run to start though.

I've said it before, there is a point there where your choices are irreversible.

Solid Snake

10-09-2015, 01:30 AM

My understanding is that the requirements for a full genocide run are obscene, though. Like, you'd really have to go out of your way with a strategy guide or some sort of walktrhough to make it happen.

At any rate, I'll spare just enough random encounters to avoid it, I think. My first 'neutral' run really just isn't 'neutral' insofar as I will be killing all the bosses.

Arhra

10-09-2015, 02:21 AM

My understanding is that the requirements for a full genocide run are obscene, though. Like, you'd really have to go out of your way with a strategy guide or some sort of walkthrough to make it happen.
Kill every random encounter until no-one shows up any more, then kill the area's boss.

This is murder, not rocket science!

Aerozord

10-09-2015, 10:53 AM

The idea of a "neutral" run is also kind of a silly idea because I get why even one death denies you stuff. Lets extend this to real life "I'm not a pacifist, I'm neutral, I only kill like 20% of the people I meet"

Steel Shadow

10-09-2015, 11:51 AM

That's not exactly how it works, but the game does a pretty fine job of explaining itself and explaining you anyway. I'll leave it for you to discover though, this is a game that should be as unspoiled as possible.

I've known at least one person who decided to go and do the genocide route and just couldn't bring themselves to continue after a certain point. It's not difficult to do, mechanically. Any difficulty you have is just up to you.

It was a fine game, thanks for the recommendation, guys! Now to never touch it again.

Overcast

10-09-2015, 05:51 PM

Yeah had the same effect on me. My poor heart.

Steel Shadow

10-09-2015, 06:05 PM

And it was your recommendation that did this to me. I'm not sure I'll ever forgive you Ovie!

So thanks!

... Now I'm curious who could stick through with No Mercy here, though.

Arhra

10-09-2015, 08:30 PM

The neutral ending depends on exactly who you kill.

Don't you want to see how King Papyrus goes?

Steel Shadow

10-10-2015, 04:57 AM

But to do that you'd have to murder the best character!

(They are all the best)

As for the neutral ending - you get it your first time anyway. It's that or No mercy, the True end is unreachable. If you've been a pacifist, and haven't killed a soul, you get the chance immediately after to go trigger that one instead.

On the actual gameplay/spoilers, since I was never anything but FULL MERCY, I really enjoyed every fight. Each one's a puzzle to work out how you can get out of this without killing your opponent! The only one that really tripped me up bigtime was the guy at the end, since you... Well, if you've played, you know what you have to do to get a victory there.

Overcast

10-10-2015, 02:36 PM

Yeah its a bit of a moment that makes you think...
http://31.media.tumblr.com/96a9085d7011b3b75e5ec5f71ef6d78c/tumblr_nv48k9USI11tysz53o1_250.gif

note, swap tag is spoiler, don't clicku.

Seil

10-10-2015, 02:53 PM

I don't get this game.

I get that this game is a thing, but I don't get it.

Overcast

10-10-2015, 05:53 PM

Howso Siel, if you don't mind me probing.

Seil

10-11-2015, 05:01 AM

It seems like this an interesting idea destroyed by this weird mash up of NES and SNES and early PC game graphics with a complex battle system that you can only attack/mercy enemies that have yellow text and stuff.

It's messy. It's a weird mess of stuff that looks like it was done in a free RPG maker.

Overcast

10-11-2015, 05:13 AM

I don't agree but I've heard enough criticism from folks who don't like it to know it just didn't match your desires in that department.

Which is fine, it would be insane to think a game is going to reach everyone the same way.

To me everything seems to fit smoothly, and feels deliberate and fine. I don't share a single one of your opinions, but still respect you got em.

Seil

10-11-2015, 03:37 PM

Cool idea, though.

Aerozord

10-11-2015, 05:27 PM

I said I'd do it, and I meant it
Undertale Genocide run, now you can see what happens when you are a complete socio-path

uDkKCYL5E3E

Loyal

10-11-2015, 08:57 PM

I don't really have the heart to go through with it. Genocide, that is. I don't wanna see all those nice people get hurt.

e: Have a cute picture instead.
http://i.imgur.com/q8oyjqq.gif

Aerozord

10-11-2015, 09:27 PM

I don't really have the heart to go through with it. Genocide, that is. I don't wanna see all those nice people get hurt.

Dont worry, I'll be evil so you dont have to

Loyal

10-11-2015, 10:27 PM

I hope you get dunked on many, many times.

Overcast

10-11-2015, 11:26 PM

For a little more fun here is, Muffet's Spider Dance, with Spider Dance (http://img.4plebs.org/boards/f/image/1443/41/1443416270872.swf) and some spooky skeleton action. (http://img.4plebs.org/boards/f/image/1444/14/1444142146623.swf)

Perhaps most dangerous I offer you a Death By Glamor. (http://img.4plebs.org/boards/f/image/1444/16/1444160190527.swf)

Arhra

10-12-2015, 02:18 AM

Dont worry, I'll be evil so you dont have to

You're gonna have a bad time.

Aerozord

10-12-2015, 08:16 AM

You're gonna have a bad time.

Well I'd certainly hope so, I even took more than one candy

Malek

10-12-2015, 04:59 PM

You Monster Human!

Aerozord

10-13-2015, 11:24 PM

so my next episode is unfortunately delayed because
A) I got sick
B) I forgot to hit record and had to start over from the begining.

Fun fact on your next playthrough Toriel remembers some of your choices.

Loyal

10-19-2015, 08:03 PM

It's sounding like someone can't commit to his chosen path. It's okay. Most can't.

Solid Snake

10-30-2015, 10:27 PM

Bard The 5th LW

10-31-2015, 01:30 AM

Played it as a pacifist for my first run. Loved the game a lot - it has a lot of heart. I was honestly disgusted when my brother admitted he killed Toriel. Legitimately don't think I have it in me to Genocide.

e: I don't really have an immediate critiques of the game other than the fact that its making me feel guilty for considering 100% completion. Maybe its a bit easy? The 'combat' is pretty simple, even when you're not fighting. I feel difficulty wasn't really the point overall though, so its not a major complaint.

Krylo

10-31-2015, 02:24 AM

This song is so fucking incredible that I genuinely want to Genocide Run just to hear it. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCMJC1Ig6s)

Sssssooooo GGOOOOOOOOOODDD (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UA2Wruwgsg)

The scene immediately preceding it is fantastic as well. It's where I got in genocide before I decided I really didn't want to practice a bullet hell fight for an hour or two to kill someone that I tried for a good 20 minutes not to kill in my neutral run before giving up and murdering her, and also forcing myself to jump through hoops to fix my save after

Maybe its a bit easy?

Try Genocide.

Also, I'm not sure how you'd be expected to not kill a number of enemies, bosses in particular, on your first play through if you aren't using a guide of some sort. Toriel especially as the method to save her doesn't seem like it's working, every enemy before then you can spare by just picking mercy after beating them up a bit, and the last chunk of her health, what should be a number of attacks yet, goes away all at once.

Really, the only bosses who are easy to figure out how to not kill are Papyrus and Mettaton. Maybe Muffet, only because you might not be able to kill her before she spares you naturally, or you might use a spider cider or whatever as a healing item incidentally.

I believe the game was designed around the idea of you killing a lot of people your first time through. A number of the encounters pre-papyrus, with the exceptions of Toriel and the awkward ghost, really seem pretty unworthy of saving at first glance as well. The entire monster species is all hyped up about the genocide of the entire human race and Toriel informs you that every other human that goes through the door is murdered. Without meta-knowledge there's no good reason to spare most monsters before Undyne--as it's the waterfall area and monster kid that hammer in the fact that monster kind is 'human'. Even Papyrus, who is a huge lovable goof, is, at first glance, totally stoked about kidnapping you and turning you over to someone who is definitely going to murder you, and rip out your soul to turn someone into a god so they can murder every single human being.

Granted, with Monsterkid, Alphys, the Tems, and various monsters you speak to afterward, you get a deeper understanding of WHY they want to wipe out humanity and they start coming through as more complex characters who simply see humans as 'the enemy' and are so disconnected from the terrible reality of what they're cheering for that it hardly reflects on them at all, or the way Asgore sees the killing as a terrible weight and how he's waited for humans to fall always hoping another wouldn't, etc. etc.

Point being, I see no reason to be disgusted with someone killing Toriel, unless they did it with a guide on hand just for funsies, maybe.

Also: There's a lot of really excellent scenes and story hidden in the neutral path.

Steel Shadow

10-31-2015, 06:16 AM

I managed a pacifist run on my first go mostly because the game advertised itself as allowing you to kill or spare your enemies, so I went with sparing.

Toriel wasn't the one I needed a guide for. I just swore off the attack button and tried all the other options a few times - and as subtle as it is at first, her dialogue changes every time you hit spare, so I chased that until the fight was over. Papyrus was easy enough - I really didn't expect to like him anywhere near as much as I did before that fight, too...

But yeah, Undyne was where I needed a hint. That takes multiple attempts of doing something that feels like it won't work at a very specific point in the fight. In retrospect I should have been able to work it out, but apparently not.

And then my 'never use attack' strategy hit me in the face when it came to Asgore. I tried everything many, many times, even after glancing at the wiki because I really didn't want to have to win the fight that way. Ah well.

Bard The 5th LW

10-31-2015, 12:20 PM

Also, I'm not sure how you'd be expected to not kill a number of enemies, bosses in particular, on your first play through if you aren't using a guide of some sort. Toriel especially as the method to save her doesn't seem like it's working, every enemy before then you can spare by just picking mercy after beating them up a bit, and the last chunk of her health, what should be a number of attacks yet, goes away all at once.

Only character I had to look up a guide for was Undyne. I felt Toriel was pretty obvious, because one of the frogs hints at it before the fight, and when you start choosing 'Spare' her bullets literally move around you and her dialogue starts to change.

Most enemies/bosses were just sorta endurance tests to go no-kill on. Jut, pick the right option and survive their attacks for [x] amount of turns. In truth, I broke the bank because I thought the only way to not kill Muffet was to give her all the money I had, but apparently she realizes you bought a donut in the ruins naturally after a certain point.

Krylo

10-31-2015, 02:41 PM

when you start choosing 'Spare' her bullets literally move around you and her dialogue starts to change.

Actually if the bullets are dodging you it just means you've done poorly and one more will kill you. Eat some in the face and attack her and you'll notice it. It's meant to be unlosable (although if you manage to die Toriel gets a special sprite for a second). That happens regardless of how you approach the fight. Also her dialogue remains exactly the same for spare for a good number of rounds, outside of dialogue she speaks normally in the battle.

I thought challenge would work on Undyne because of the dialogue thing, as well, but when it didn't and I went back I realized the dialogue happens either way. It's the same with Toriel for the first few as memory serves. I know her 'spare specific' dialogue doesn't come up until you've already selected it a number of times, instead being ". . ." for many spares.

So you basically lucked out. Although frog hint is there for the Toriel fight, that's true.

Steel Shadow

10-31-2015, 02:58 PM

It's not exactly the same. It goes from nothing, to '. . . . . .', to '. . . . . . . . .', and then she starts talking. Or something like that, it's been a while.

Solid Snake

10-31-2015, 04:07 PM

Papyrus is Best New Character of 2015.
Any other choice is objectively false.

Bard The 5th LW

10-31-2015, 04:40 PM

Papyrus is Best New Character of 2015.
Any other choice is objectively false.

Part of why my brother's murderous exploits bothered me was his reasoning.

"Why did you kill Toriel?"

"I dunno, Flowey said 'Kill or be Killed' so I thought she was probably secretly evil or something."

"Why would you listen to that guy?!"

"I also killed Papyrus."

"Why?!"

"I dunno, he attacked me."

"He's so lovable though!"

Arhra

11-01-2015, 05:47 AM

To be fair, a lot of Papyrus' characterisation comes through after that fight.

Solid Snake

11-01-2015, 04:16 PM

Killing Toriel I can sort of understand. As Krylo noted, the game's tutorial is just ambiguous enough that you can still genuinely believe that Toriel will stand down after you prove your skillz to her for a few rounds (and then an attack suddenly does a massively disproportionate amount of damage.) And she basically goads you into fighting with false statements to the effect of "Mercy isn't an option this time" and the 'mistake' of killing her just seems to be built into the first-time playing experience.

Killing Papyrus, however, is an inexcusable sin. Bard, your brother may just be a terrible human being.

shiney

11-02-2015, 10:14 AM

Is this the game where if you kill someone, and then do another playthrough, the game references that previous killing and makes you feel bad about it?

pochercoaster

11-02-2015, 01:11 PM

Yes.

Arhra

11-02-2015, 05:24 PM

Is this the game where if you kill someone, and then do another playthrough, the game references that previous killing and makes you feel bad about it?
Don't worry, it also makes you feel bad on the same playthrough.

Also it all makes sense in context.

Arcanum

11-03-2015, 03:19 AM

Is this the game where if you kill someone, and then do another playthrough, the game references that previous killing and makes you feel bad about it?

Just started the game today. Was uncertain about a lot of the game's mechanics (as the only thing I knew about the game beforehand was that you can play the game without killing anything) and thought the only way to progress a certain early fight was to actually fight, and killed that character. I then quit out and reloaded my save, and during the fight the game was like "what's the matter, you look like you've seen a ghost" and "you feel like you should tell X you saw them die, but you're not sure how to bring it up" and "I know what you did, I know you used your power to SAVE that person" (last one is super paraphrased, but you get the point).

So yeah, it's basically like Resetti from Animal Crossing, except instead of being all up in your face for resetting, it guilts you like a grandparent you haven't visited in a long time.

Loving the game so far though, even though I'm not very far (just met some skeletons named after fonts).

shiney

11-03-2015, 08:08 AM

It sounds cute, I'm tempted to give it a try.

Steel Shadow

11-03-2015, 09:10 AM

It is cute, you should try it. You probably won't have a bad time.

mauve

01-28-2016, 07:45 PM

So I have this thing I tend to do with RPGs. If I'm really enthralled with the world and the characters, I binge on the game, play up to the final mission, leave just before the point of no return, go back for sidequests, and then I just stop playing for a while. Because that final boss means the game is over and there's no reason to hang around in the world, and if I really like a game I'm loathe to cross that threshold until I really have to. The big plot-changing revelations hit and things change and then the game's over, for better or worse. So for me, quitting or taking a break before the final boss is a sign of how much I like the game's world and story, rather than a sign that I lost interest.

Welp, that's where I'm at with Undertale. It's a short-ish game, but it's so damn good and interesting and I love all the characters (except friggin' Mettaton. He killed me more times than Undyne did). So two days ago I reached the Hall of Judgement, chatted up Sans, (several times because I'm a horrible wiki-reading cheat), left to do some sidequesty things, and then promptly turned off the game. I'm honestly all for Sans' suggestion of just livin' out the rest of my days in the Underground without making life-or-death choices about a guy who seems really nice but also probably murdered six other kids. And no, while I spoiled some major plot points for myself by reading the wiki, I didn't spoil the endings aside from the fact that there are multiple ones.

I will finish the game more sooner than later: I want to see what happens next and I will likely restart after beating the game (can you actually go True Pacifist in a first runthrough, or does it just give you a "good neutral" ending? I tried not to spoil the endings for myself. I know I should have done a Neutral run first in order to get the most out of the game, but honestly it's so damn easy to spare almost every enemy that I never actually touched the fight button.) But the fact that I've fallen into my old RPG habit in a playthrough that's not even as dramatic or impactful as I imagine it could be is a testament to how good Undertale is. I generally don't care much about "nostalgic" games, since I didn't start gaming until my early teenage years. PS2 games are "nostalgic" to me, not pixel games. So my love of Undertale isn't out of a fondness for the era or for Earthbound (never played Earthbound anyway). But Undertale is funny and stupid and smart and serious and lighthearted and sad all at once, and it's such a simple little game but it somehow ranks as one of my favorite things I've played this year.

Also my deepest regret is that I never managed to pay for Temmie's college fund. The shame.

Nikose Tyris

01-28-2016, 07:51 PM

You can do it your first go- kinda. If you haven't killed anyone at all, just go for it and you'll understand what I mean. I don't want to get more complex then that because it'll give things away.

Bum Bill Bee

01-28-2016, 10:15 PM

okuFofe7FfM

Probably the biggest contact I'll ever have with this game. And it suits me just fine.

Malek

01-29-2016, 12:30 PM

mauve

01-29-2016, 12:50 PM

There are a few ways to earn unlimited amounts of gold if you need it.
Most involve selling items for more than what you pay for them. I think the cloudy glasses gives the quickest returns if doing this.

Really? Hm, I'll have to go look into the cloudy glasses situation. Sadly, I ended up discarding a lot of gear I could have sold. I still have a Dog Residue, but I lack the patience to try raising 600+ coins from items woth 4 coins each at best. ...I wonder if I could have just sold the Annoying Dog...

I was pretty close to having enough money at one point, but then Muffet and Mettaton EX happened.

Arcanum

01-31-2016, 05:21 PM

So I finally got around to beating the game. Oh my god do I regret not doing it sooner. I went for pacifist my first time through, since the game was kind of advertised as being able to do so. It was pretty hard at some points, but I managed to figure out every fight, save one, through sheer DETERMINATION. The only fight that stumped me was Asgore, since I didn't know you had to do a neutral run before it gave access to the true pacifist ending, but at least it gives you the pacifist ending stuff immediately after thanks to timeline shenanigans.

So then after I beat the game I decided to do a genocide run. First off, oh my god Sans is such fucking horseshit it is ridiculous but oh my god I love that fight despite how much I hate it. When I first reached the fight, I spent about 40 minutes straight slowly learning the fight. Every attempt I was getting noticeably better, losing less hp, making it further, using less healing items. It was intense. Decided to take a break, then it took me another 20-30 minutes before I finally beat him. Just, wow, what a satisfying fight.

As for general thoughts on the genocide run itself (and the ending), I feel terrible. Not only for the murder, but for the ramifications across the timelines and obliterating the entire game world. And then I looked on the wiki and found out that a genocide run corrupts future runs if you wait out 10 minutes of howling wind sounds, unleashing Chara unto the world. No thanks, not doing that, I'd rather the world stay dead.

Although I might have to grab that tool that undoes genocide run consequences and replay the game with another pacifist run to make things right again.

I didn't think I could care so much about sprites, but oddly enough I do.

Also, in regards to best character in the game, Undyne is the best, her theme is the best, everything about here is the best. Papyrus is a close second though.

mauve

02-03-2016, 12:33 AM

EDIT: Actually finished; sort of! Regarding the boss fight--- OH MY GOSH SO FUCKING COOL. This game is pulled an Arkham Asylum with the crash fakeouts and I LOVED IT.

oh, and for the record, the best character in Undertale is obviously ALL OF THEM. But mostly Sans and Papyrus and Undyne and Alphys and *goes on to list every single character*...

Edit again: OK I'm doing the Pacifist after-game extra stuff and Alphys is getting closer and closer to being second-best character. Best character remains Skelebros. Yes they both count as the best.

Arhra

02-03-2016, 03:09 AM