Who the Hell put this Settlement Bullshit in Fallout 4?!?!? [Archive]

Solid Snake

11-14-2015, 06:12 PM

Actually, I think what's starting to annoy me even more than Settlement Simulator 3000 is the complete lack of roleplaying options. Bethesda stripped the dialogue so far down that it's Mass Effect style guessing as to what tone your character's going to respond with. It's so stupid! I can barely even identify with my character because it doesn't feel like I have any meaningful input into who he is or how he thinks.

By contrast like, with New Vegas, I was able to build up entire fuckin' mythologies around my characters. They had cohesive backstories that informed choices I made and the whole world was alive around them. It was awesome!

Fallout 4 suffers from the Fallout 3 problem of: "How the hell are these random settlers still alive two hundred years after the bombs fell when they have no infrastructure and why the hell is your character the only one fucking capable of leading them?"

Then there's the huge issue of the entire pacing of the beginning of the story, wherein things happen within ten seconds of each other because Bethesda couldn't bother to actually write a decent intro.

I hate you Bethesda, give Obsidian your license to make all future Fallout games, your writers are shitty writers.

Aerozord

11-14-2015, 06:36 PM

I'm more bothered by how the dialog options make playing with a mouse a nightmare as you have to move over and click an arrow. Which, big deal, they aren't even trees its yes, no, douche, and more info for basically every single conversation. Mass Effect had alot of that but it also had alot more info to gather and the renegade/paragon options

Not that its the worst its just more in your face. If you really want to talk about limiting RP options, I hope you like killing because 90% of your side quests require you to kill people. There is no stealth option to sneak in and grab something, no conversation option to peacefully solve it, not even a backstabbing dickhead option. You either kill everyone at the location or the mission is incomplete

However I do like the game. Been playing it each day, already planning out my second run through but yea this is no New Vegas, its not even as good as Fallout 3. I certainly wont replay this as much since non-combat focused builds aren't viable.

phil_

11-14-2015, 07:43 PM

If you ever played the old 1998 Battlezone games, they actually had a fairly cool first person (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHnltRy8VAU) strategy interface (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUrJMERhXEU).All I can contribute to this discussion of the latest fancy PC video is that Battlezone also had an N64 release which kept the strategy and building intact. Not that we played the single player, vastly preferring to waste entire days killing limitless bots in multiplayer. We played enough that we even figured out how the random spawn points for bots was accomplished. Namely, they spawned outside the map and had to bash themselves against the walls until they glitched through to "spawn."

Ah, fond memories of false violence in an appropriate setting.

Grandmaster_Skweeb

11-15-2015, 04:18 AM

Iono, I kinda like it. (http://imgur.com/a/v5mQz/all)

Not mine but it gives me ideas.

Arcanum

11-15-2015, 01:42 PM

I'm more bothered by how the dialog options make playing with a mouse a nightmare as you have to move over and click an arrow.

Apparently you can use the number keys for dialogue options. 1 = up, 2 = left, 3 = right, 4 = down, I think.

Either way, whoever designed the PC controls and UI was out of their goddamn mind. I did find out on reddit the other day that in the settlement menus if you hold shift you can navigate the menu with WASD instead of the arrow keys, so that makes it slightly better (albeit retarded that it is explained nowhere). But there's still the fact that bash, power attack, and grenade are all bound to the same fucking key, and nobody thought that might be a dumb idea.

MSperoni

11-15-2015, 03:11 PM

What's even worse is when you're in the middle of a quest and you get a message about how a settlement of yours is under attack and then you go back and parts of it are destroyed.

However, building and maintaining them isn't too hard, and you really don't have to do it at all. It's just an option.

I like it because I can make my own house and fill it with containers (I have my little kitchen downstairs). I built a pretty large house, so big that I actually was able to stuff one of the fabricated houses INTO it (it's my bathroom).

A nice thing about settlements is that if you do build one up (and you only really need one, though I'm working four at the moment), you get traders and whatnot coming in and you're rolling in the caps and gear.

Also you can have a doctor always available.

Plus you gain XP from building. And you unlock more stuff later, like mortars. Those are useful against Deathclaw.

Bethesda doesn't do a very good job of explaining the subtleties though. I had to look online how to rig up my two-story house to have working lights, a TV, a radio, a discoball...

The last thing my character cares about is saving her son. What son?

I'm already sleeping with Preston.

Aerozord

11-15-2015, 04:09 PM

Speaking of, that was another bad move on their part. If there was one thing Fallout 3 had over New Vegas it was the story. Revenge is an easy motivator but lots of reasons not to seek it and the game just assumes once you get your revenge you'd want to deal with the politics.

Three hit just the right amount of story. For one you had lots of reasons to search for your father, angry at him, worried, you want answers, heck maybe from wandering you just want the purifier for other reasons and he's who you need to talk to. There was no sense of urgency for much of it. He was alive and you knew of no immediate threat. Heck he was managing his way around just fine for awhile apparently.

This however lacks that. Assuming you empathize with a parent that lost their child, you cant really justify anything else. The only reasonable actions are either to power through story missions, or you aren't that worried in which case the main quest completely falls flat.

MSperoni

11-15-2015, 06:24 PM

If there was one thing Fallout 3 had over New Vegas it was the story.

lol

Grandmaster_Skweeb

11-16-2015, 12:15 AM

Fallout 3 had a story? Well shit, color me surprised. Here I thought it was fallout 1, 2, and bits of tactics ran through a slaughterhouse. Followed by throwing away everything that made them good while the remaining viscera on the abattoir floor was packaged for mass production.

Aerozord

11-16-2015, 07:51 AM

anyways. I have some mixed feelings about the approach to conversations. Having them be dynamic and proximity activated does make it feel more immersive, but the fact its a new approach shows. Its freakin buggy. Once I couldn't complete a quest because of it, another time the guy ran away as I kept trying to talk to him. People talk over each other into a gargled mess, ect. Still its something that I think is a good direction that when it does get refined will be good for the genre. But right now in practice it doesn't work very well

11-16-2015, 12:24 PM

Its freakin buggy. Once I couldn't complete a quest because of it, another time the guy ran away as I kept trying to talk to him. People talk over each other into a gargled mess, ect.

Skyrim?

MSperoni

11-16-2015, 01:28 PM

Aerozord

11-16-2015, 02:22 PM

Skyrim?

difference is once you got them to finally start talking they didn't walk away

Solid Snake

11-18-2015, 01:34 AM

You know, I gotta give it to Fallout 4, a few surprisingly decent quests that I've played over the last few nights (largely by conveniently ignoring settlements entirely) have elevated it above Fallout 3.

Congratulations, Fallout 4! You are now only the second worst Fallout game ever! Someone blow some horns and sprinkle some confetti!
(It's even third worst if you count Tactics!)

But, dear God almighty, if Bethesda just let Obsidian run with this engine, we'd actually have the best Fallout game ever in the history of histories.

Grandmaster_Skweeb

11-18-2015, 02:09 AM

http://i.imgur.com/pqqhN2Y.gif

Solid Snake

11-18-2015, 02:11 AM

Look, Grandmaster.
I know you mean well.
But here's the underlying reality:

WHEN THE DEAD HORSE IS FALLOUT 3, I WILL NEVER STOP BASHING IT

Grandmaster_Skweeb

11-18-2015, 02:23 AM

http://i.imgur.com/pqqhN2Y.gif

^

Arcanum

11-18-2015, 02:52 PM

Well that didn't take long at all. Someone made a mod to replace the current awful dialog options with the full text of what you will say, as well as numbering them.

Link to the mod. (http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/1235/?)

Aerozord

11-18-2015, 05:28 PM

Its more of the interface for me. I dont mind the mass effect "general idea" thing. I have found a new annoyance though, how if you find out there is a dialog option you need a charisma perk for (and I hate that its a universal), often you cant just back out. If you refuse or say no or whatever thats it. Left me terrified about just talking with people and trying to find something out.

What I look forward to is when someone uses that mod so we can have more than four freakin options

The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk

11-20-2015, 11:16 AM

Currently the only problem I have with the conversation system is occasionally it seems to glitch out and everyone stops talking, and no options to continue the dialogue appear. Then after a prolonged pause the game seems to continue, but I'm never sure if it's skipping the next section of dialogue or what. It's very irksome.

Settlement building is... ok, though I think you really need to put points into local leader to make it really pay off, and I have shit for charisma. In the meantime I'm just gona use it to farm for purified water, tatos, corn and mutfruit so I can make more adhesive. Need so much adhesive...

Rest of the game is pretty great. Weapon and armour crafting and power armour upgrading are great and actually having a reason to salvage stuff at last is deece and makes it really feel like living in a wasteland.

Karrrrrrrrrrrresche

11-20-2015, 02:52 PM

Fallout 3 does a better job of telling you why you should care about thing (Barely cause I still kind of didn't and thought it was really hamfisted) but only because New Vegas is way more about deciding for yourself why you care for who/what you care about. It never tells you who you are cause that's up to you.

MSperoni

11-21-2015, 12:45 AM

The settlement feature would work better if it actually worked at all and the game bothered explaining it.

It's awkward and stupid. I've spent hours building trading posts, houses, beds, food, defense, everything, and my happiness STILL drops for no reason.

It looks neat but it's a complete waste of time. I've had to consult online guides just to get some help, and I still don't have control over the mechanics of it.

This "Benevolent Leader" trophy may be an insurmountable goal...

Grandmaster_Skweeb

11-21-2015, 01:27 AM

Pay close attention to your settlers, Speroni. Some may not be what they appear to be. Despite Trumpin' Sanctuary with a defensive perimeter wall and many turrets I still had to purge a few synths from my Sanctuary Sanctorum. Nothin like a good ol' fashioned inquisition. They failed the Voight-Kampff test and in return were power fisted for the greater good of humanity.

AD VICTORIAM!

Aerozord

11-21-2015, 03:20 AM

how exactly does it "farm"? Like are gathered resources just dumped into an inventory somewhere? Do I need to make people do it?

Grandmaster_Skweeb

11-21-2015, 04:34 AM

plant shit. pick shit.
Assign a settler to tend crop shit. A settler can attend up to six crops.
shit picked by settlers gets dumped into settlement storage. Use Transfer at a workbench to look at surplus shit. that's where the produce goes.

probrotip: raise corn, mutfruit, tatos, and have an industrial water purifier to make vegetable starch.

Never run out of adhesives ever again.

MSperoni

11-21-2015, 10:49 AM

how exactly does it "farm"? Like are gathered resources just dumped into an inventory somewhere? Do I need to make people do it?

Yeah. You need to assign settlers to resources like crops, scavenging stations, and markets or else they won't collect resources for you. The game will show a little red icon next to a resource that hasn't been assigned (it will be blue when you do assign it).

You can also assign settlers to beds...I suppose the purpose of that is to assign them to houses, but I dunno.

Good luck remembering which settlers you have assigned where. The game doesn't do a great job of letting you know. The resource the settler is assigned to is highlighted when you highlight them, but if you don't have a clear line of site to it there's no way of knowing. It'd be nice if the game provided a menu that allowed you to pair up a settler by their name with a resource.

Here's a method I do to keep it straight: Whenever you assign a settler to a resource, go old school jRPG and dress them for their part. Only dress your shopkeepers a certain way, farmers a certain way, your guards a certain way, etc.

That way you know, at a glance, who is doing what, and if a settler is new they wont' be dressed in a role, that way you can tell who is new and who isn't.

(its hard to find the same clothes for that many people, but if you stockpile enough shit you ought to be able too -- all my farmers were naked for awhile. When you open up a clothing store you can buy outfits.)

Anyway, the goods your settlers collect will be stored in your workshop. And the money your stores make will also be put there. Other things like smoke grenades for your artillery and flares will also be stored there. I never use them, so I have a lot. Flares are nice because you can sell them.

However, I've assigned two people to collect tatos and they still haven't showed up in my workshop's inventory. Which is annoying since that's one of the ingredients in Vegetable Starch (which is very useful way to get Adhesive).

Also shops cost 1000+ caps to install, and they generate income at such a slow rate they won't be making their cost back in revenue anytime soon. Aside from having some merchants on hand to sell your junk weapons, they don't generate enough revenue on their own to warrant the cost of installing them. The rate they're generating revenue is so slow, I'm pretty sure I'll have finished the game before they pay back the cost of a single shop.

I've heard that when you raise your settlement's happiness you'll increase everyone's productivity. But no matter what I do, no matter what guides I follow, happiness always ranges between 70-80.

I can't help but think what this kind of mechanic would be like if it didn't suffer from good ol' Bethesda half-assed ness.

Unfortunately I don't have a PC so I can't get a mod to fix any of this.

Your Charisma effects how many settlers you can have in your town. I've read that you need to have your Charisma at 10, and then equip a bunch of Charisma Boosting Items to raise it in order to have at least 21 settlers in your community. This is what the guides say is necessary to obtain the maximum amount of happiness as well as the "Benevolent Leader" trophy (or whatever it's called).

Luckily for me, I was rolling a Charisma character from the start. My Charisma is an 8 now and the only point I put into it was via the bobblehead (meaning I started with a 7).

Grandmaster_Skweeb

11-21-2015, 07:49 PM

Only food generated in excess of population count will be stored.

MSperoni

11-21-2015, 10:57 PM

Interesting. I better start planting tatos!

Magus

11-22-2015, 02:11 AM

So is this Sanctuary thing required or is it optional?

Grandmaster_Skweeb

11-22-2015, 03:28 AM

Settlements are entirely optional but very rewarding in terms of raw materials and income, if done right. It's generally best to invest into one settlement as the main 'hub' town. Once you set up supply routes to other places you can specialize them for food production, water production, etc. if so desired. A water settlement with a minimal amount of settler, typically one or two, in it is a goddamn cap factory in that purified water sells extremely well for how little effort is needed to generate a lot of it. Which feeds into currency needed for stalls and other necessities if one is aiming for the 100% happiness achievement.

Also, creating a settlement network is a great way to reduce crossing the map when dumping junk collected from adventuring, especially for someone like me who uses fast travel as little as possible. For example, say you make Sanctuary as your main settlement and you set up a trade route to the Red Rocket gas station nearby. Any settlement branching off of Red Rocket still has access to Sanctuary's inventory through the workbenches.

Aerozord

11-22-2015, 08:42 PM

Of course it doesn't tell you HOW to set up a trade route

Seriously it was just by chance that I learned how to scrap items and I had to look up connecting wires. Because like an idiot I thought wires would be in the section labeled WIRES AND SWITCHES

---------- Post added at 08:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 AM ----------

So I did abit of playing and learned, settlements in my game are completely broken. They produce no resources even with people assigned. I also tried opening up a shop, assigned a guy, and when I tried to get stuff... nothing. And I mean nothing not even my inventory showed up it looked like we both had absolutely nothing.

Now maybe I'm missing something but if so this is just horrible design if, even after asking about it. I still cant get this crap to work

MSperoni

11-23-2015, 10:21 AM

They produce resources but will only show up in your shop if you have a surplus.

You probably aren't noticing the scavenging materials they're producing because they're dumping them in with all your other scavenging materials. You also have to build scavenging stations, and assign settlers to them.

Settlements are really poorly implemented but they aren't THAT poorly implemented.

The problem I have with it is that in order to set up trade routes you have to have the Local Leader perk, which means you have to be rolling a Charisma build, which is way too structured for a Fallout game. I'm pretty sure in my subsequent playthroughs (if there are any, I'm not 1/4th as keen on this game as I was New Vegas) I won't be rolling a Charisma character (I lucked out this first time), so this settlement shit isn't going to be a factor.

Which may be a good thing, really. Not having the perk to take full advantage of it means I don't have to worry about it...

Speaking of farming water, I need to start throwing down more pumps.

Not just to sell, I need it for making things.

Grandmaster_Skweeb

11-23-2015, 02:55 PM

Build an industrial water purifier. Doesnt need an assigned person to pump out 40 water. All it needs is power.

MSperoni

11-23-2015, 05:45 PM

I actually haven't assigned anyone to water and I'm still getting it stockpiled. I don't have the science for the industrial thing. I have four of the mid-tier water pumps and a handful of small pumps. I think my Water Output is around 50 or 55.

I actually have too much stuff built in my settlement. The size is maxed out...

So I should probably spend a perk on Science so I can build the Industrial Purifier so I can get rid of the small pumps and free up some space for more shops.

Aerozord

11-23-2015, 09:39 PM

There is something else from a purely game design standpoint that I dont like. I dont feel like I'm getting stronger. The entire point of a leveling system is to feel a sense of progression. I dont get any of that. Partly thanks to scaling enemies and the incredibly minor weapon upgrades enemies always feel about the same level of difficulty.

This is true of other games, but they had numerical and clearly visible indications. I could also focus on certain stats to run ahead or behind the curve. The other issue is weapon mods in my opinion. There is normally a noticeable gap between things like reload speed and damage but the mods fill in those gaps so its a smoother continum

Arcanum

11-23-2015, 11:23 PM

Really? I've been feeling significantly stronger compared to when I started. I've been putting points into the rifle and mod perks, and my modded out hunting rifle and laser rifle had me feeling pretty great compared to the first hunting and sniper rifles I got. And then I finally got a plasma rifle and modded that out to be dealing about 85 damage per shot, which had me two-shotting super mutants (one-shotting if it was a head shot) who normally took half a clip of my laser rifle.

But anyway, I got bored of the game after ~22 hours so I'm done with it for now. I'm tired of the awful menus, of how the settlement system is lacking so much functionality and quality of life features, and of how I feel like a schizophrenic when I'm playing because I change my dialog choices to cater to companion so I can get access to their personal quest.

I've reached the point where the gameplay just feels tedious and I don't care about exploring whatever dilapidated ruin is around the corner because there's no incentive to do so. I hardly ever profit from exploring because I rarely find enemies that use the ammo I use, and only sometimes do you get bits of lore that are actually interesting.

I stopped caring about the story too because it has just been "go here, kill this, choose to be nice or a dick in dialog but it has no effect on the outcome, go here, kill this." At least the Memory Den bit tried to be more interesting, but all I could think was that Fallout 3 did it better with Tranquility Lane.

It was fun while it lasted but the game just feels mediocre once the novelty wears off.

Overcast

11-24-2015, 12:01 AM

I've enjoyed the game so far, unlike most I really haven't felt any issues with the UI. I've some sort of insane ability to pick up all the small visual elements that means that the only time I've been confused so on how to do something was for the most part building two story buildings and powering indoor things.

The main thing bothering me about the main questline is our sense of scale. After Fallout NV I was back to the original sense of the first 2 Fallouts in the sense of scale again, and it is a forcible reminder when I come to Boston that the East Coast appears to have consolidated into a myriad of unexpansive city states. All the factions you work with in the game feel minute, with one exception and only because of their limitless potential, compared to the major parties at work in New Vegas.

Assured the parties you work with in 4 are likely going to have a hardened effect on what happens in Boston, but truth be told if any of these people had to deal with the NCR or Caesar's Legion they wouldn't have the ability to truly stand up to them. As the West Coast BoS learned, even significantly better firepower cannot win over overwhelming numbers and the logistical capabilities of a national power.

I helped a faction the first time not only cause it made sense for the main character to do so more than any other faction, but because that literally was the only one that might have the capacity to form something larger than another city-state in time.

Arcanum

11-24-2015, 01:32 AM

I have three main problems with the menus.

First, as has already been mentioned, is not being able to see who you have assigned to what in settlements. Coupled with that is not being able to tell who is new to the settlement without tedious workarounds.

Second is the archaic inventory system that hasn't changed since Fallout 3. No way of comparing stats on items other than writing them down yourself or looking at the super vague ++ or -- symbols. Can't sort "Aid" items by their effect (i.e. healing, buffs, status removal). No way to tell what you recently picked up (especially annoying if I looted a holo tape without paying attention so now I have to scroll through my cluttered misc inventory for a tape with an unfamiliar name). For that matter, no idea why they didn't have a holo tape inventory section considering there's a significant amount of them. Not being able to see more than 10 or however many items at a time because they insist on style over function. Gotta have the character's arm and full Pip Boy model on screen or the player might forget that it's a Pip Boy strapped to their arm!

Finally the inventory screen when trading (either with merchants or companions) is also terrible. Want to find your weapons or armor that you can give to your companion? Best you can do is sort by "dmg" and have both of them mixed together at the top of the list. Is it too much to ask to get the same categories already established in our inventory instead of a massive list and underwhelming sorting?

I would also gripe about the terrible dialog UI, I mean all Bethesda had to do was put numbers in the circles instead of arrows, but a mod already fixed that.

edit - Oh I just remembered, the crafting UI is pretty shitty too, since it leaves out several stats that mods affect. Quickly checked the wiki to grab some stats that aren't shown (might've missed some): reload speed, ammo per mag, bash strength, crit damage, recoil, and burn damage (for energy weapons). That's a lot of information to leave out, and makes comparing weapons even more difficult.

MSperoni

11-24-2015, 02:35 AM

The main thing bothering me about the main questline is our sense of scale. After Fallout NV I was back to the original sense of the first 2 Fallouts in the sense of scale again, and it is a forcible reminder when I come to Boston that the East Coast appears to have consolidated into a myriad of unexpansive city states. All the factions you work with in the game feel minute, with one exception and only because of their limitless potential, compared to the major parties at work in New Vegas.

Yeah, for all the size of the map, FO3 and FO4 seem really tiny and isolated. You don't feel like your character is a part of anything. In New Vegas you really could shape the course of the area depending on who you allied with.

But in FO3 it's: "Yeah I found my Dad then restored some water and died. Except I came back to life in the DLC I guess. I don't even know."

Having not played any of the previous games prior to FO3, I actually thought the world was super dead and pure water was the only hope for humanity.

Then I learned about the NCR and the Crimson Caravan and...everything else that the previous two games had established...

Did FO3 even touch on any of that stuff?

And FO4 is feeling like more of the same.

I understand that "canonically" the east coast got hit harder by the bombs, and the Legion would've prevented any westward expansion, but couldn't the game have at least tried to establish SOMETHING of a world?

New Vegas was more of a legit sequel to FO2 than FO3 was. Even the Elder Scrolls games threaded their story together better, and Oblivion and Skyrim are like hundreds of years apart (I think).

Grandmaster_Skweeb

11-24-2015, 04:54 AM

Preferences of UI aside, one thing that 'thesda really fucked up on was enabling unlimited grenades on NPCs.

Gotta love being in a fight with super mutants who toss molatovs every three seconds. Shit starts to look like the Gulf War oil field fires after every skirmish.

MSperoni

11-24-2015, 10:52 AM

Yeah I really hate that.

It's especially a pain when you're trying to play through the game on Survival.

Though, once I found out this game wasn't that good, I turned it back down to Normal.

I don't mind playing NV on Very Hard with Hardcore turned on, because it's a great game and is very flexible in what you can do. There's more than one way to beat it besides "shoot everything forever".

FO4 though? Ulgh. If I ever decide to attempt a full Survival playthrough it's gonna have to be as a character who ignores this settlement bullshit. I need all the crafting items I can muster for grenades and healing items.

Aerozord

11-24-2015, 11:41 AM

Having not played any of the previous games prior to FO3, I actually thought the world was super dead and pure water was the only hope for humanity.

Then I learned about the NCR and the Crimson Caravan and...everything else that the previous two games had established...

Did FO3 even touch on any of that stuff?

I didn't play the first two games but I did look over the canon because I'm nerdy like that.

The reason factions like the NCR exist is because they were built up from a GECK themselves. It actually is a big deal, almost required, to get much of a foothold in the wasteland. In fact I believe the plot of Fallout 1 was getting your water purifier back up and running

MSperoni

11-24-2015, 05:05 PM

Yeah that was the basic plot of FO1, but the backdrop of the game was much more rich and expansive.

And I'm pretty forgiving about the first game in the franchise having such a simplistic story...But I think the third game shoulda continued that, or developed it some, because it feels less like a sequel and more like a reboot...

Overcast

11-24-2015, 07:25 PM

As I am going through my third run of the game I'm also running into another small peeve. Repetition.

In FNV your initial driving desire to find the guy who took your package and shot you in the face was a very neat little package. You follow a trail that gives you a general gist of things going on in the Mojave and gives you fast travel access to most of the main trading hubs for your future adventures outward.

As you close the reason that you get tied up into the politics of the area is because you have proven yourself impressive, and because you have a very distinct thread that makes you interesting to everyone.

But that initial inspiration was the only real thing that repeats, after that each major faction questline, while occasionally treading the same ground, leads you down a path that is distinctly that faction. Third time around I am dreading getting to the Institute because I know I'm going to just have to flatly do the Institute questline again to a certain point before the divergence happens where I kill everyone.

On a similar note, it is hard for me as I play my character to divorce myself from the fact that Father is my son. I mean maybe it is just me, but it is really hard for me to actually betray him every time. He's my son who I killed my way across the wasteland to find. It strikes me that I would do anything for the only true thread to the life I once had. Unlike FNV the inspiration that guides you toward the splitting point never actually disappears like Benny did. It asks you for aid. And I just feel weird about going against that request.

Aerozord

11-25-2015, 12:01 AM

Ok something I do like about this game is how your companions are much better at acknowledging whats going on. I just had the mysterious stranger appear and Nick immediately spoke up about who the hell he is and where he went.

MSperoni

11-25-2015, 01:06 AM

@Overcast

Yeah I agree. FO4's story is just...it doesn't work. Not only doesn't it work as a story, but it also fails in regards to the kind of game Fallout is. This story doesn't fit.

Even Skyrim's, as painfully linear as it was, at least had the epic fantasy vibe of "kill evil dragon. save world." What else do you expect a fantasy adventurer to do but go kill a giant monster? The only thing that could've made it more genre-tastic would've been if you saved a princess (or prince).

I'd rather FO4's story be like FO3's.

If it was simply a matter of stopping the generic bad guys it'd be better than...this horribly contrived twist.

ULGH the more I play the game and the more I talk about it the more I need to play through New Vegas again to wash the taste out of my mouth.

Krylo

11-25-2015, 01:54 AM

I'm going to disagree with both of you and say that FO4's story works a lot better for the kind of games the newer Fallouts are than New Vegas's.

My problem with NV is that there's never a time at which you really feel like you CAN explore the open world. First you're chasing Benny, and the trail is growing cold and you're right on his heels. Then you have the platinum chip and EVERYTHING IS HAPPENING HOLY SHIT. YOU HAVE A ROBOT ARMY AND THE LEGION IS ATTACKING AND SO IS THE NCR AND ALL THE THINGS. And then the game is over and there's no option to play post game.

There's never a point at which you can go, okay, I've got some time to faff about.

(spoilering all of this because I'm too lazy to do it in sections. Fuck ya'll) In FO4 they send you off to Diamond City which is roughly 'fuck you' away from where you are, giving you plenty of time to explore, look around, etc. Further, you don't really have any idea where you're going or what you're doing, which ellicits more freedom to explore. Sure, you need to find your son--but there's 0 guarantee that Diamond City is going to be helpful.

And then you find out the institute took Shaun BUT you have every reason to believe he's safe. Kellogg says he's safe, he's been gone for ten years and seems healthy, etc. etc. And, to top it off, the trail, again, leads you all the way across the wasteland to the glowing sea and beyond.

And then, then, you finally find Shaun and discover he's the head of the institute and just fine, but also arguably also super-Hitler. Which is kind of a bummer, but it, again, frees you up to explore, talk to people, do things outside, and contemplate what you're going to do before entering end game.

And then it still allows you to play post game.

So basically, New Vegas succeeds at being a story driven non-linear experience, but fails at being an open world exploration game. Which is fine. It's very very good at the thing it's trying to do. However, the Bethsoft titles (whether in the Elder Scrolls or Fallout Universes) are all about the open world exploration.

So yeah, New Vegas has a better story line, sure. But FO4 is much better at being FO4 than New Vegas is, because FO4 isn't really about it's main story line as a game. It's about wandering the wasteland and finding random hidden death mazes, and Super Behemoths with swan boats tied to them as armor, and swapping bodies for AIs. The whole thing with Shaun is, really, the side show that's just there to give you an excuse to romp around the wasteland blowing things up, saving people from raiders, building settlements, upgrading gear, and finding altars to horrible unnamed horrors from beyond the stars. Something New Vegas failed at because, while it had a lot of those fun little side things, again, it never gives you a lull in the story where you can really, without completely telling the story to fuck off, justify leaving the main road.

Edit: Also FO3's story was objectively awful, including in comparison to FO4.

MSperoni

11-25-2015, 03:24 AM

My problem with NV is that there's never a time at which you really feel like you CAN explore the open world. First you're chasing Benny, and the trail is growing cold and you're right on his heels. Then you have the platinum chip and EVERYTHING IS HAPPENING HOLY SHIT. YOU HAVE A ROBOT ARMY AND THE LEGION IS ATTACKING AND SO IS THE NCR AND ALL THE THINGS. And then the game is over and there's no option to play post game.

True, but you're leaving out the parts in New Vegas where House/Yes Man/whoever tasks you to go around the Mojave dealing with the various factions, like the Brotherhood of Steel, the Boomers, all the gangs on the Strip, The Kings, and the Great Khans.

And depending on how you choose to deal with these factions, you could potentially cover a large section of the map completing their various quests. The Boomer quest will most likely have you pass through Camp Golf in order to get to Lake Mead to raise the plane.

And after you speak with House and go deal with Benny, you have to go to The Fort in order to arm the rest of the Securitrons. You will probably head through Camp Searchlight on your way to Cottonwood Cove, which is at the lower right corner of the map.

And another thing: if you start at Goodsprings and follow the path the plot takes you, you'll pass Primm, go all the way south around to Nipton, up through Novac, west to the Repconn Test Site to help the ghouls (or kill them). After that you'll go north and pass Helios One, then to The 88, when you will head east to Boulder City to deal with the Great Khans. Finally you'll head up to New Vegas.

So while NV is very much a "point A to point B" kinda game, there's a LOT of points and they cover almost all corners of the map. You can't help but explore and open up new locations. Unless you're the type of person who plays these games and strictly follows the plot, there's plenty of opportunity in NV to wander aimlessly. Because of the lack of urgency in the plot it's easier to believe your character would be more likely to find time to explore. Having a missing kid seems to work contrary to that, IMO.

And that's not even getting into the DLC...

EDIT: Though I'll admit I haven't finished FO4. I've gotten through a lot of it though. Perhaps my tune will change slightly in the end but it's gonna have to take something MAJOR to make me see it as NV's equal.

Krylo

11-25-2015, 05:32 AM

Because of the lack of urgency in the plot it's easier to believe your character would be more likely to find time to explore. Having a missing kid seems to work contrary to that, IMO.But you go from 'Find the guy who shot me in the head before he gets away' to 'Mr. House has the WHIP on you, because war is coming and you need to PREPARE' to 'MASSIVE WAR'. There's no point at which it's not urgent.

One of the biggest (and only) failings of NV is that you can't just give House the platinum chip and tell him you're a courier. You couriered. Job done. Fuck off mate, I'm going to do my own shit.

Because that's the only time where you would have been able to have 0 urgency.
Though I'll admit I haven't finished FO4. I've gotten through a lot of it though. Perhaps my tune will change slightly in the end but it's gonna have to take something MAJOR to make me see it as NV's equal.It's not NV's equal. It is, however, a completely different type of game. NV is a branching semi-nonlinear story based game. FO4 is an open world game that has a story that acts as an excuse for you to be in the world.

Also, the missing kid thing is really heavily mitigated by the time you hit the mid point, and mitigated more by the fact that there's no guarantee that hitting diamond city will actually help you. And then mitigated further yet when it becomes super super obvious that the institute isn't going to to hurt Shaun, and you need to dance through hell to find him, while a lot of the side quests don't have the same kind of 'no one will die if I put this off'.

The start of the game has plenty of time to explore where you only have a vague idea of where to start looking and don't know what might actually lead you to Shaun. So does the mid game when you need to gear up for the irradiated wastes and you know it's been at least ten years that Shaun has been fine. And so does the end game when you meet Shaun and he's basically terrible, and you start getting quests from him and have time to wander around and think about which faction you're going to help and whether you should sacrifice the wasteland and all its people for your son, or your son for the wasteland.

Overcast

11-25-2015, 05:25 PM

I had to doublecheck, but actually yeah you can tell House that you couriered fuck off mate. He'll be like sure, go check out the Strip, see my works and consider my offer but otherwise you are free to take off and do your own thing.

And at that point you are free to consider the second step at your leisure, and go out and do your own thing as a public adventurer.

Though I am also the kind of person who doesn't get much play out of the post game business. I'm a very classical Fallout guy, used to the feeling that once you've done your monumental action for the Wasteland you walk off into the sunset and war, war never changes.

As for the finding your son thing being mitigated, I'll admit that before Diamond City shit looks sparse, and I can understand the father being hopeless and sidetracked on the way there trying to find any sort of faction that could help him in the act. But, once you and Nick start working together it seems like the path picks up its momentum and if you actually desire to find your son, whether the Institute is taking good care of him or not, you are going to not let that shit sit on the table and go flat as much as keep chasing these very solid leads.

After that when you meet Shaun I have this distinctive feeling of shits not given by the people of the Commonwealth. I just inherently disagree that helping him is sacrificing the Wasteland, I mean he intends to fix it but otherwise nah. Because it isn't like anything Shaun asks you to do is particularly monstrous save for the treatment of Synths, by and large he most seems to be acting in the interests of the Institute and maintaining it for the potential of a better future. By his nature he is spoiled, and considers the world above lesser than his world below which is not entirely inaccurate and he will do what he can to force the world to fit to his standards. He is like a significantly less cool Mr. House. Though this is kinda a broken argument that I probably shouldn't have.

Still as a father and a man out of time I feel inclined to help him, because what he is asking me is no more evil than anything I've already done and by the end I get to be in a position to do the most change in Institute action, as its leader. Without sacrificing its potential for good.

Also I actually really liked the twist. There were hints of it throughout from Codsworth and Kellogg so it isn't random or contrived but actually just reasonably hidden and interesting to me.

Krylo

11-25-2015, 10:58 PM

I had to doublecheck, but actually yeah you can tell House that you couriered fuck off mate. He'll be like sure, go check out the Strip, see my works and consider my offer but otherwise you are free to take off and do your own thing.I may have misremembered, then. I'm not sure why.

After that when you meet Shaun I have this distinctive feeling of shits not given by the people of the Commonwealth. I just inherently disagree that helping him is sacrificing the Wasteland, I mean he intends to fix it but otherwise nah. Because it isn't like anything Shaun asks you to do is particularly monstrous save for the treatment of Synths, by and large he most seems to be acting in the interests of the Institute and maintaining it for the potential of a better future.
I get the feeling you missed a lot of hidden terminals and lore, then.

If you explore more thoroughly you find out that the institute is responsible for Super Mutants in the east. They were toying with FEV strains for ages, kidnapping people from above, infecting them, and trying to create more controllable Super Mutants. You also find out that other scientists dislike the practice because, upon creating Gen 3 synths, 'they no longer needed super mutants as biological agents on the surface'. That is to say that the Institute was using the Super Mutants. Further, you find out that Shaun refused to shut it down until Virgil infected himself and destroyed part of the lab, specifically to force a shut down.

So every time Super Mutants in either of the Bethesda titles were killing and eating people? That's because of the Institute.

Further, you find out that they directly lie to you to make themselves seem better. When speaking to the SRD head scientist about Coursers he tells you that they look for certain qualities in Synths, amongst which is 'independence', and then train those ones to be Coursers. However, on one of the terminals in his office you find out that the Mayor of Diamond City is a synth and ALSO requested to be a Courser. Two reasons are given why this will never happen, the first is that he doesn't have the physical capabilities necessary to be a courser. The second? The very act of requesting to be one shows that he is too independent for the job.

So we know the Institute is actively hiding their worst from you, even in regards to Synths. Which is impressive considering how awful the things they DON'T hide from you are.

Thirdly, is the fact that the Institute is directly responsible for the Eastern wastelands being as they are. That is to say: No NCR, Legion, real Brotherhood presence, etc. Just fractured city states struggling to get along. This isn't stated directly, but is obvious in their actions. They infiltrate anything getting large and tear it down, or use their agents on the surface to stop it. Diamond City was attacked by Super Mutants--which we now know are 'institute tools' at least in part--in one of the largest organized attacks from the creatures. When that failed, a mayor became Synth. A mayor created divisions within Diamond City and gave it powerful enemies by ejecting all the ghouls and explicitly keeping security forces from investigating missing persons. Goodneighbor is on constant high alert because of synth infiltration. People are killing their own relatives in fear that they might be synths.

The only fall of a major faction that can't be attributed directly to the Institute is the fall of the Minutemen. However, as soon as the Minutemen get big in the end game--if you aren't working with the institute--they attack the Castle. I don't know about your game but I was asked to stay out of the Institute's business, and I did, right up until they marched their army to my front door. It really didn't seem like they were attacking the Minutemen because of me--after all, all Father asked of me was that I back off, and he seemed disappointed and annoyed that I showed up in the institute. Not like it was a natural thing after he tried to blow up my house.

This means that the attack on the castle wasn't Revenge--and the Minutemen were of no direct risk to the Institute. So why? Because the Minutemen were large and powerful enough to potentially be one.

This is further supported by the kinds of experiments that the Institute does. You find a specific one on one of their terminals where the plan was--kill family father, replace with synth, use synth to oversee crop production of new variant of tato, and then have synth father murder his family and burn the farm to the ground.

Now, that'd be one isolated thing--if not for the city of Covenant--which is populated entirely by people who had survived similar attacks by the institute. An entire city and then some made up of survivors, and that's just the attempts that the institute fucked up.

Something like the NCR would make experiments like these much more difficult to carry out unnoticed (or at all, for that matter). The institute has reason to want the world divided. They have both means and motivation.

So while they claim to be doing it all for the good of mankind, it's not. It's for the good of the people living in one little spot underneath CIT.

So, in conclusion, the Institute is completely and utterly evil. However, Bethesda did three things to help make it seem like a thing you could join, and, in doing so, made joining the evil faction here a lot more justifiable than joining them in NV, hilariously. Firstly: No karma system. The game never tells you, directly, if what you're doing is good or bad. This is a huge boon to the writing in multiple ways, but for now we'll stick to 'you never get told you're losing karma when you work for the institute'. Secondly: Father is your son. This gives you an immediate and understandable reason to want to give them a chance, if nothing else. And Thirdly: It hides a lot of the horrible things they've done so you need to explore both the wasteland and the institute, and talk to lots of people in order to really see the depths of how bad they really are.

Solid Snake

11-25-2015, 11:08 PM

Fallout 4 is kind of starting to grow on me? However, it's starting to grow on me only insofar as I've started completely ignoring ancillary activities (such as everything related to settlements) that I'm disinterested in. The sidequests are fun on their own terms, Boston looks beautiful, and while the voiced main character really limits the fun of Fallout's traditionally expansive dialogue trees, I do feel a greater investment for my guy's familial plight than I did in Fallout 3 because I feel the pain in his voice when he talks about Shaun.

But I haven't gotten anywhere near where you are all yet. I'm still meandering around Level 18, and just kind of wandering aimlessly after saving a certain detective. Piper loves me and she's great to adventure with, but having just gotten that fancy perk for maxing out our relationship, I think I'm going to switch her out for Codsworth or Curie.

Still, Fallout 4 has done enough aesthetically so far to justify it being rated over Fallout 3. In fact, it'd probably look something like New Vegas > Fallout 4 >>> Fallout 3 in my book, with 4 closer to NV than 3 in the rankings, which is much better than where it started out when I created this thread, back when I was almost swallowed alive with stupid settlement-building quests. Settlement building is still atrocious, and I hate it, but if there's ever a top-down interface PC mod that made it simple to build the shit I actually want to build it'd actually be...kind of fun?!?

Still going to disagree with Krylo on one little nuance; even viewing New Vegas from the lenses of an open-world exploration experience I still preferred wandering around the Mojave. To be clear, Fallout 4 is prettier. But between my Old-World main character and the sheer stupid amount of perfectly preserved grocery store food that Bethesda foolishly brought back from Fallout 3 it's hard for me to buy into Fallout 4's world and really immerse myself in it in a way that would give the exploration meaning. It's like, no, I don't really believe that I'm wandering around this place over 200 years after the bombs fell. It feels more like maybe fifty years after the bombs fell. And even that is generous.

What I appreciate about New Vegas most is how insignificant your character is. Yes, your Courier's choices alter the status quo of the major powers fighting for the Mojave, but you're still just one (wo)man in the wasteland. You can shift the balance of power but you aren't single-handedly saving the world by delivering pure water to everyone or, in Fallout 4's equally egregious case, somehow being the first and only person in the past two hundred years who can single-handedly start entire communities of settlements and protect everyone and...like...what?!?

And Fallout 4's pacing is objectively atrocious. The intro is horrible, to be sure, but at least it ensures you'll replay those segments quickly in future playthroughs. But the Minutemen? You show up and all the sudden you're sufficiently trustworthy to immediately be thrust into its leadership role! Valentine trusts you from the moment you rescue him.

Actually, this kind of gets to another tidbit Obsidian is just so much better at than Bethesda...giving your supporting cast of characters their own independent motivations, backstories, personalities and agency! I love the fact that Boone and Cass and Veronica and the gang have their own allegiances and if your Courier walks the wrong path they'll turn on you because they value those allegiances more than they value your friendship. Whereas in Fallout 4 it's just so immersion-breaking to hear all these nitwits profess unequivocal adoration for you the moment you show up on the scene and say a few nice words in their general direction. I like Piper as a character, but her character is still paper-thin; there wasn't even a sidequest I needed to perform to flesh out her motivations and give me any idea as to what motivated her to risk her life alongside me.

All of which to say is, for me personally, my willingness to feel satisfied exploring an open world depends in large part on how well immersed I am in the story...and New Vegas really succeeded in immersing me. Fallout 4 has been better than Fallout 3, but it's still leagues behind. I still remember really being excited to discover the trees and life around Jacobstown in the mountains west of New Vegas, and the Red Rocks around the Khans' camp, and first seeing the lights of New Vegas against the dark horizon, and just strategically engrossing myself in the little details of the skirmishes between the NCR and the Legion, like who controlled what town, and how I could help the NCR take territory back. Fallout 4 is just beautiful abandoned building after beautiful abandoned building, and Diamond City, and the settlements that I refuse to give a shit about, and not much else.

Krylo

11-25-2015, 11:37 PM

In fact, it'd probably look something like New Vegas > Fallout 4 >>> Fallout 3 in my book, with 4 closer to NV than 3 in the rankingsAgreed.

Still going to disagree with Krylo on one little nuance; even viewing New Vegas from the lenses of an open-world exploration experience I still preferred wandering around the Mojave.

[. . .]

I still remember really being excited to discover the trees and life around Jacobstown in the mountains west of New Vegas, and the Red Rocks around the Khans' camp, and first seeing the lights of New Vegas against the dark horizon, and just strategically engrossing myself in the little details of the skirmishes between the NCR and the Legion, like who controlled what town, and how I could help the NCR take territory back. Fallout 4 is just beautiful abandoned building after beautiful abandoned building, and Diamond City, and the settlements that I refuse to give a shit about, and not much else.I'd agree with this too.

My main problem with NV as far as open world exploration goes, is the DLC, to be honest. Most of the stuff in the Mojave the story line does lead you through, but like, I never felt there was a time I could fuck off to some random Casino for Dead Money, or go wandering off into the wilderness to explore Honest Hearts, and Old World Blues was 110% designed like it should be the last thing you do after everything else in the Mojave. Once you do that there's not a lot of motivation to go back and finish up the Mojave stuff, and there's also not a good time to just wander off on a journey of self-discovery dealing with some random psychopath from your past. To Paraphrase OC, it's the last thing the Courier should have done before wandering off into the wastes as war never changes. But there's no post game.

Also, speaking of Old World Blues, it hit on another problem I had in New Vegas, which is that your NV character isn't a blank slate. You know your character's job and life up to this point and their basic motivations in NV. That was all decided for you. And Old World Blues fills in even more of the backstory that you were allowed to fill in yourself with you apparently being Cecil from FF4 and delivering the bomb box. I loved New Vegas, but I never felt like my character was my creation with their own wants and needs. I felt more like Commander Shepard or Hawke than a character I had designed on my own. The problem exists in FO4, as well, and it's the only thing I'd say FO3 does better. In FO3 you're told your dad is missing and you CAN go after him if you want, but you had to leave the Vault either way and it's entirely open that maybe you don't really give a shit about your dad after he ran off into the wasteland and nearly got you killed and turned your entire life upside down, and maybe you don't touch the main quest until you stumble upon him in that Vault. In FO3 YOU decided your character's motivations (at least until the water purifier thing comes up, but even then you can tell your dad you'll meet him there maybe, and then just show up when you're sufficiently bored). In FO:NV and FO4 it's already decided for you, and it kinda chaffes me.

But that's off topic.

What was the topic? Oh yeah, not being able to work in time to do DLCs without creating cognitive dissonance for myself and destroying my immersion completely and utterly:

With FO4 I don't foresee having the same issues. When the DLC drops I can either do it in post game, near the start of the game, or right before deciding whether or not I want to join the institute.

Fallout 4's equally egregious case, somehow being the first and only person in the past two hundred years who can single-handedly start entire communities of settlements and protect everyone and...like...what?!?To be fair, this isn't really the case. The Minutemen had been doing fine for what appears to have been decades, and only fell apart within the last couple of years due to a combination of infighting, weak leadership, and getting murdered by the gunners.

On the last one, I'm like 99% sure it's because they insist on using those stupid laser muskets. "Oh lets use a gun with one shot per reload, and with a slow cranking reload, that doesn't even do shit for damage instead of all these semi-automatic weapons laying around." Idiots.

But the Minutemen? You show up and all the sudden you're sufficiently trustworthy to immediately be thrust into its leadership role!That was silly. I mean, it's mitigated a little bit by the fact that there's literally only one minuteman besides you at that point, but still silly. Or maybe that makes it sillier? I don't know.

Valentine trusts you from the moment you rescue him. To be fair, you're hiring him as a noir-esque private detective.

Actually, this kind of gets to another tidbit Obsidian is just so much better at than Bethesda...giving your supporting cast of characters their own independent motivations, backstories, personalities and agency! I love the fact that Boone and Cass and Veronica and the gang have their own allegiances and if your Courier walks the wrong path they'll turn on you because they value those allegiances more than they value your friendship. Whereas in Fallout 4 it's just so immersion-breaking to hear all these nitwits profess unequivocal adoration for you the moment you show up on the scene and say a few nice words in their general direction. I like Piper as a character, but her character is still paper-thin; there wasn't even a sidequest I needed to perform to flesh out her motivations and give me any idea as to what motivated her to risk her life alongside me.Agreed, although Cait has her own quest and I THINK Curie does? I never found her so I'm not sure (I never found the sick kid after rescuing the cat). Others might as well? A lot of the companions are easy to miss. Like Cait is basically on a miscellanous quest marker.

Aerozord

11-25-2015, 11:47 PM

Nick I can actually see trusting you just because of the kind of guy he is. Still thats the issue of most RPGs in general that they try to justify by you being "the chosen one". A simple way to do this is just forcing you to wait abit before companions would join you, really Fallout 4 was just in too much of a hurry to hand you stuff like that. The power armor being an obvious example.

I disagree about New Vegas being more aesthetically pleasing and I think they had good reason for their choices in 4. Namely people complaining. You are right it doesn't make much sense for there to be things like paint after so long. Its not realistic, but realistically it would all be brown and dull and lifeless. So no pleasing everyone

Still what I'd prefer is color where it should be. In New Vegas and Fallout 3 they used the same assets everywhere. Issue is places like the casinos or Tenpenny Tower should not be dilapidated wrecks. They are controlled by people with the resources and motivation to make these places look nice. To repair them, paint them, ect. I understood it with those games since it would require making more models and textures. I dont get it with this one. Due to the opening they had to make those assets, so why not put them to use. Why does everyone's home look like an abandoned house they are squatting in?

Solid Snake

11-26-2015, 12:00 AM

My main problem with NV as far as open world exploration goes, is the DLC, to be honest.

It's funny (and accurate) that you mention this, because before you noted that there's no post-game in New Vegas, I actually genuinely remembered all the DLC as occurring post-Hoover Dam. Like, in my head-canon, independently of how you're forced to actually play through the game, all that content (except maybe the Zion excursion, which you can justify if you tackle it near the beginning of your playthrough, before shit gets real) happens after you fight at the dam and resolve the war.

So, yeah, it's true that even in New Vegas, there's a certain degree of selective dissonance I'm employing. It's just that the dissonance in New Vegas doesn't strike me as quite so severe, for whatever reason. Maybe it's just because by the time I'm replaying Vegas for the third or fourth time, I know the broad strokes of the Courier's story well enough that I can almost imagine myself playing his or her's adventures out of chronological order. It's an easier leap to partake in than retconning the entire chronology of the world itself to make sense of the plentiful materials found in abandoned buildings.

EDIT:

I disagree about New Vegas being more aesthetically pleasing

Oh, there's absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Fallout 4 is much more aesthetically pleasing. I mean, the graphics and the colors and the sheer variety of what you're seeing are miles ahead.
There's just certain (comparatively limited) aesthetically beautiful moments in New Vegas that stick out in my memory more because of how immersed I was in New Vegas' story.

Karrrrrrrrrrrresche

11-26-2015, 12:03 AM

Mindlessly adding in that I can, could, and have listen(ed) to Ulysses talk for hours and hours on end.

I love Ulysses.

Solid Snake

11-26-2015, 12:07 AM

Mindlessly adding in that I can, could, and have listen(ed) to Ulysses talk for hours and hours on end.

I love Ulysses.

Independently of the weirdness of the chronology of when the New Vegas DLC takes place, I will agree with the broader point you may be making here, which is that the substance of New Vegas' DLC was incredible and I really hope Bethesda took notes.

Karrrrrrrrrrrresche

11-26-2015, 12:17 AM

Independently of the weirdness of the chronology of when the New Vegas DLC takes place, I will agree with the broader point you may be making here, which is that the substance of New Vegas' DLC was incredible and I really hope Bethesda took notes.

I really would just flatly say I love Ulysses but yeah the greater point is that on their own each DLC is impeccable. I honestly never thought about how they all wove into each other, and sort of considered each a thing that a Courier may do but never that one person would do all of them. (A player would but I don't think of the courier as doing them all if that makes sense.)

It's just fuckin fantastic how the narrative of all of them put together kind of weaves around how big of an impact people can have with relatively little action. You and Ulysses both leave marks in each others lives without ever intending to. For a time not even knowing that you had. You by delivering to the Divide, and him by visiting or even creating some of the DLC stories that you run across, and in a weird way you kind of get the reflection of yourself, the places you've visited in the Mojave will be different forever, to everyone that lives there or will ever go there.

Krylo

11-26-2015, 12:40 AM

On a slightly different subject:

OjxFTDzeG6A

Overcast

11-26-2015, 12:55 AM

I did notice the super mutant bit in the Institute, but then I have difficulty figuring whether or not they were ultimately responsible simply because I know the source of the Super Mutants in Fallout 3 was Vault 87 and not as proxies for the Institute. That being said I can see how they are likely responsible for their presence in the Commonwealth.

I am also unwilling to believe they are responsible for instability across the entire east cost as they seem to keep their actions to the Commonwealth unless otherwise noted, this is mostly found because the Brotherhood which has the ability to notice the kind of power fluctuations present in teleportation, only began to notice the Institute when they sent scouts down the Commonwealth.

I was also aware of just about everything about how they treat synths, I've told my boyfriend that as leader of the Institute I'd probably shut down Type 3's because if they have free will this is bad, and if they don't have free will they malfunction well beyond what is acceptable for anything we desire to use as roboslaves. Up to and including Coursers.

That being said I never actually got to visit Covenant and I didn't get to read about the nuanced experiments the Institute is up to and that shit is fucked, so I agree pretty evil. Though perhaps not as pervasive.

Fuck yeah spoiler conversations. Also damn you posted one punch before me.

MSperoni

11-26-2015, 12:55 AM

I'd like a game that's a spinoff about Joshua Graham.

Adventures of Burned Man or something. It'd be like the Arkham games only you'd be Graham going around murdering Legion people.

EDIT: Also, I have Strong with me. He seems to be the perfect side-kick in this grand quest of violence I'm going on. He doesn't complain. He just shouts things like "LOOK ME IN THE EYES WHEN YOU DIE!"

He's my kinda partner. I don't have to worry about his agency or whether or not he's openly contradicting himself. All Strong cares to do is smash, and that's all I really care to do.

It's kinda stupid though because my character was all upset and crying when she was talking with Valentine about Shaun. I'm choosing to believe she was faking because I'm roleplaying a sociopath.

Overcast

11-26-2015, 01:00 AM

Now now, Joshua only murders people who deserve righteous fury. Sure as hell, he'd kill any Legionnaires coming after him, but the way he does business means that for the most part you need to show yourself an animal before you get to see his rage.

MSperoni

11-26-2015, 01:12 AM

Does she actually look like someone who cares about her kid?

link (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTeW928UAAASpSw.jpg:large)

EDIT: Then again...Knowing what we know about the story...

Krylo

11-26-2015, 03:13 AM

http://i.imgur.com/fm3hTUj.gif (http://i.imgur.com/fm3hTUj.webm)

Grandmaster_Skweeb

11-26-2015, 08:04 PM

The mod I've been waiting for:Darker nights. (http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/191/) Because night shouldn't be nearly as bright as day.

MSperoni

11-26-2015, 10:11 PM

Cool, and I also really like that they made it easier to sneak because of this.

Aerozord

11-26-2015, 11:21 PM

Does she actually look like someone who cares about her kid?

link (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTeW928UAAASpSw.jpg:large)

EDIT: Then again...Knowing what we know about the story...

..... *glances at image* .... *looks at character description* ... You do realize you basically just made Harley Quinn right?

MSperoni

11-27-2015, 12:40 AM

Krylo

11-27-2015, 03:18 AM

Pretty much.

Anyway, the Happiness in Sanctuary just dropped *another* 10 points, from 74 down to 64.

I've done everything right, based on everything I've read, and the townspeople are complaining about nothing when I ask them.

There's 22 people, 54 food, 57 water, 136 defense, 31 beds.

There are nine shops and one clinic. Four of those buildings are the "Level 3" post, the most expensive ones, the ones that generate the most happiness, allegedly.

This "Benevolent Leader" trophy isn't going to happen because this is complete and utter bullshit.

I will never do this crap again, and I'm tempted to just take out my Fatman and blow these fuckers to kingdom come.

Only clinics, general stores, and clothing stores actually produce happiness. If your nine shops are comprised of armor/weapon shops, especially if your level three ones are, it's not helping. I'm not sure if shops of the same type stack or not, either.

Also, wall coverings, TVs, radios, and rugs are also all necessary to increase happiness. You also need the 'size' of your city to be in the yellow (I.E. near to max objects). Further, you need to be there personally. People like when their mayor is around and dislike when s/he isn't. So spend a few days sleeping for 24 hours and ringing the 'get all settlers over here' bell.

You could also try synth hunting by quick saving, killing everyone, and then reloading and rekilling (from stealth), or moving to another settlement, anyone you found a synth component on.

Flarecobra

11-27-2015, 02:38 PM

MSperoni

11-27-2015, 09:05 PM

Pretty much everything you said are what I've read in the guides.

I've done most all of it. I haven't spent very much time with the townspeople lately and I haven't done the "ring the bell" thing. Since, y'know, I'd like to play the actual freakin' game and not stand around doing nothing.

(Since I'm capable of reading the basic descriptions of things*, I'm aware that the armor/weapons shops don't increase happiness, and have not been putting them up as a result.)

However, I haven't done the "synth hunting" thing so I suppose I'll try that.

The size of my town was maxed out, so I tore down a bunch of stuff and removed a few things (premade stuff like fences, trees, etc). I built a whole new house for the settlers. Filled it with decorations, beds, and then put a new level 3 trading post in.

I hung around for a bit and then went to do some quests.

Happiness in Sanctuary went from 80 down to 60...

This is such a STUPID thing.

*though I will admit I didn't entirely trust what they said, and I still don't know if similar shops stack

Solid Snake

11-27-2015, 10:50 PM

I've heard there's a high-level island to the east that's an ideal location to hunt that trophy for in terms of like, best possible settlement location.
...Haven't been anywhere near that corner of the map just yet, so, take that with some salt.

MSperoni

11-27-2015, 11:10 PM

Interesting. If I hadn't built so much up in Sanctuary I might try something else.

Maybe I need to disassemble everything in Sanctuary except my house and then move everyone to a new location.

Sanctuary is kind of a shit location anyway since all the other buildings are in the way and you have to build around them.

Once I get some "downtime" regarding my leveling up I'm gonna take Science so I can get an Industrial Purifier. Maybe that'll cut down on number of basic pumps I need and so I can put in more decorations or shops.

Another thing I'm not sure of:

If I go into a house (like in Sanctuary for instance) and find a TV, or a sofa, or a chair, or a radio, etc, and then move it into a settler's home, does that count as a "decoration" to increase happiness? Or do I have to build the item myself?

Because there have been a few times where, to save on material cost, I'll move an already made TV or a rug or something into a settler's home.

Aerozord

11-28-2015, 12:01 AM

From what I've seen it looks like it only considers stuff you made part of the settlement. Thats just the impression I got

It also occurs to me some locations, it might not be possible to get the achievement

MSperoni

11-28-2015, 01:16 AM

It also occurs to me some locations, it might not be possible to get the achievement

Oh?

I demand an elaboration!

Aerozord

11-28-2015, 02:19 AM

Oh?

I demand an elaboration!

Ok keep in mind this is all theory

But maybe the initial conditions make it harder. Like all the ruined (but not salvageable) houses clutter things up, or the fact you need to place a water purifier so far away bothers them.

If what Snake heard is true and there is a "best possible location" than that would imply there are locations that aren't as good. Perhaps to the point even under ideal circumstances you can only get like 90% happiness. Considering this is a Fallout game it wouldn't surprise me if Sanctuary, the first option given to you, was one such location

MSperoni

11-28-2015, 02:44 AM

Yeah. Makes sense. I can't imagine getting a settlement like Graygarden or The Slog up to a 100% happiness. There's just not enough space...

Unless there IS and I don't know enough about how it works to do it.

I'll go exploring later to this "eastern utopia" that Snake mentioned and see if I can find it...

Overcast

11-28-2015, 03:38 AM

Just build upward. Make them a super mansion that reaches all the way up to the overpass.

Krylo

11-28-2015, 04:54 AM

Sanctuary is actually the worst one, but mostly just because you have a bunch of named NPCs there that are hard to command about. Sturges in particular after a certain point in the story becomes unselectable in the workbench. Having companions in a settlement also makes it harder to increase happiness, I've heard. As their 'happiness' doesn't contribute to the bar or some such nonsense.

Aerozord

11-28-2015, 11:57 AM

Just build upward. Make them a super mansion that reaches all the way up to the overpass.

Oh wait its the overpass one? I found that place awhile ago, cleared it out, but I couldn't find the work bench anywhere.

Its the one with the elevator up to the second level right?

Overcast

11-28-2015, 11:57 AM

Oh no I was talking about Greygarden, the one with the robots that farm.

Aerozord

11-28-2015, 12:00 PM

Oh no I was talking about Greygarden, the one with the robots that farm.

which farming robot, the stoner one?

Overcast

11-28-2015, 12:04 PM

No there are like five Mr. Handy's farming, with two Mr. Handy Supervisors and one Ms. Nanny Supervisor with personas based on TV shows their programmer watched.. One of which sells, one of which is French and asks you to check out their water supply, and one that has done nothing for me so far.

MSperoni

11-28-2015, 01:55 PM

I like how Mr. Green is a gameshow host and if you play along he shows you how you've won...

A NEW CAR!!!

The quest involved with Greygarden was a real pain, but I was still playing on Survival at the time. By the time I was through with a Super Mutant camp and a Mirelurk nest, I was ready for some R and R.

Having companions in a settlement also makes it harder to increase happiness, I've heard. As their 'happiness' doesn't contribute to the bar or some such nonsense.

That's why I send all of mine to the Red Rocket gas station.

Except I sent Preston to The Castle.

However I have no clue where Nick's at. He's nowhere where I typically would send someone. Or, if he is, I haven't been able to spot him. Maybe I need to "ring the bell" so everyone will come to me and I can figure out where he is.

Aerozord

12-01-2015, 05:08 PM

An issue that, to me makes charisma characters not fun is how they only show an odd abstraction of difficulty instead of percentile chance or stat check . So I never know if choosing an option will screw me over or not.

I get the argument that its less "gamified" but it pushes it to the reason New Vegas went to a straight stat check, all it does is force you to save before every conversation. So if you screw up you can go back.

Doing some checking while I write this, its apparently a dice roll, which again is even worse for that. Not only did I not know that (I was ignoring all hard dialogue options because I assumed it wasn't possible) but with no knowledge of the odds I have no idea of the odds I dont know if its a good idea. Heck without knowing the dialogue I cant even judge it based on what he says. Though judging by the illusion of choice issue I am betting he says the same no matter what

MSperoni

12-01-2015, 06:00 PM

I actually haven't played FO4 since I wrote my last post and...I'm sorta fine with that.

Not that I dislike the game but it's nowhere near what I thought it was going to be. If anything it's made me want to play New Vegas again.

When I bought it I expected I'd be playing it virtually non-stop till I got a Platinum, and then work on multiple playthroughs, but I'm having a hard time making myself beat it even once.

Everyone who complains about Fallout games usually has the same list of problems, and before FO4 I didn't see them. Now I understand why people who don't like these games don't like these games.

Cosmetically it's a tremendous leap forward, but it's a big step backwards in a lot of areas that I actually care about.

What sucks is that despite how legit disappointing it is, everyone is gonna rave about it for years to come because of all the "great ratings" it received from the various publishers who were trying to sell their crummy magazines.

Which worries me because it could shape future games, and by Fallout 5 we'll just have Call of Duty only set in a desert. It'll drop the satirical elements since that kinda thing is too complicated for the moron gamer, and you'll play as some boring ass white dude with brown hair, no personality, and a five o'clock shadow.

Marc v4.0

12-01-2015, 06:41 PM

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4549162/2015-12-01_00002.jpg

The Slog is the best settlement

Overcast

12-01-2015, 11:09 PM

It all depends honestly, the problem inherent to Fallout 4 is something that Krylo brought up, it has a much more prevalent feeling of Bethesda's charm, and much less of the legacy of Fallout's charm. It reminded me much more, in the random bits of small personal stories I'd find in notes as I wandered the wastes of Morrowind than the often deeply realized role playing experience that is a huge part of the classic feeling of Fallout, resurrected by Obsidian in Fallout NV.

Also sweet Slog.

Aerozord

12-02-2015, 11:37 PM

so instead of finishing my current run I thought I'd have more fun starting over and just hitting things with a bat, plus some mods. Sadly I learned the item sorting mod and the dialogue mod aren't compatible. I'm guessing its something with the scripting and that they didn't separate the dialogue options from the item names in the base code.

Solid Snake

12-03-2015, 09:46 PM

If anything it's made me want to play New Vegas again.

...I am so totally struggling through the same emotions right now.
It really says something about Fallout 4's staying power, or lack thereof, when I'd rather struggle through the awful bugs in NV on the PS3 just to get some more of that sweet Vegas goodness.

MSperoni

12-03-2015, 10:41 PM

The biggest sign of how uninterested I am in Fallout 4?

I Fast Travel.

I NEVER Fast Travel.

greed

12-04-2015, 03:27 AM

I'm really enjoying Fallout 4. Not as much as New Vegas, or even close but I am still really loving this and compared to other Bethesda games it's a massive improvement in nearly every way.

Like maybe cause it's been ages since I played NV but I'm mostly comparing this to Skyrim and FO4 blows that out of the water.

Ok something I do like about this game is how your companions are much better at acknowledging whats going on. I just had the mysterious stranger appear and Nick immediately spoke up about who the hell he is and where he went.

Check out Nick's office. He has a whole file on the guy. He's been investigating him for decades.

Agreed, although Cait has her own quest and I THINK Curie does? I never found her so I'm not sure (I never found the sick kid after rescuing the cat). Others might as well? A lot of the companions are easy to miss. Like Cait is basically on a miscellanous quest marker.

Cait, Curie and Nick all have fairly hefty quests.

Curie has a quest to give her a human (well synth) body, after which she is romanceable. She looks a bit like Amelie. Also take her to the Mr Handy factory. The testing area for her model has so much reaction from her.

Nick's quest is fucking huge, seriously it's one of the biggest in the game, takes you all over the place and that's not counting the case file quests you can do on your own, but he has a lot of interaction with so you should bring him.