Don't you people ever die?! A DMing thread

[tacticslion]

Originally Posted by DarkDrgon

Lion responseThe problem is I already have an established campaign in hyrule. In the last D&D thread I talked about the adventures I ran based on Majoras Mask, and then segued into ocarina of time. The Pokemon campaign is a seperate one based on a small continent in my Campaign setting that looks suspiciously like if Johto got smashed onto the coast of australia, and the locals didnt take kindly to it.

So I can't just transplant characters from one setting to another. I have no problem allowing any class they want to play. im in 3.5, btw.

Excellent, you have many more options with 3.X stuff! I do remember your old posts, but I can't check them now that the old forums "blow'd up".

Here's some concepts that might help! (Unless it can't, in which case, sorry)So: how much of the Hyrulian Campaign setting and the Poke-mon one did you specify to your players? Hyrule is large, and if you already established a Majora's Mask as a seperate reality (I don't know if you did, the video games indicated it, though) there's nothing to stop your Johto-Australia from being part of that broader "omniverse"*, or even a different part of the world, if your poke-verse isn't fully explored. Simply, quite literally, drop your characters through a hole in reality. You could, in fact, make it a plot point: someone or something is trying to a) gain a foot hold in reality, or b) trying to gain power and delving into Something Bad. That Something Bad could easily create a worm-hole, either letting things through, or drawing things in. Either way: bam, you've suddenly got a way from one world to the other. It could be very interesting to have your pokemasters match wits with Ganon's summoned hordes. Perhaps even a minor mind-bending journey through the far realm first, if you're omniverse is run that way (some of mine are, some aren't).

If, on the other hand, you've pretty clearly established "this is all there can be" in the Hyrulian-verse, than you've got a bit more of an issue. Are the players attatched to their current characters, or just the idea of being a poke-master-like character? If it's their current characters, and some of your gaming buddies just don't want to continue, you could split into two campaigns, either alternating (one every other week) or running two per week - which is a lot on you. On the other hand, if they're really attached to the idea, instead, you could simply establish a new kind of magic. In LoZ II, LoZ:LttP, LoZ:OoT, LoZ:MM, LoZ:WW, and LoZ:TP all introduced different kinds of magic - what's to stop you from doing so yourself? A new magical source could be discovered for this adventure, and several of your players have it. I don't know how your current pokemon set up is, but with a few visual alterations you could easily** adapt the elemental system to Hyrule.

* "Omniverse" is kind of a stupid word, but I use it because it makes it easier to communicate the concept multple layers to reality, even though "universe" is, by definition, inclusive of all there is in all existance.

* "Easy" being completely relative. You'd have to come up with fanciful and intrigueing visual descriptions, and explanations (if you don't have one) for an elemental system in your world. Further, you'd have to have some sort of explanation (however vague) for how such power works. So, you know.

[DarkDrgon]

MORE RESPONSE ROAR yeah, the non-gamers are pretty attacked to their pokemon characters, and the gamers are more in the mood to go back to "actual" D&D. The gamers are sick of pokemon completely, and would prefer to be more hands on. ive offered to have them switch classes completely, or change characters without a problem, but they are sick of the beasts alltogether. Running 2 games woul be way too draining on me, unless I use a module which makes me feel dirty as a DM

[tacticslion]

Originally Posted by DarkDrgon

MORE RESPONSE ROAR yeah, the non-gamers are pretty attacked to their pokemon characters, and the gamers are more in the mood to go back to "actual" D&D. The gamers are sick of pokemon completely, and would prefer to be more hands on. ive offered to have them switch classes completely, or change characters without a problem, but they are sick of the beasts alltogether. Running 2 games woul be way too draining on me, unless I use a module which makes me feel dirty as a DM

Final Thoughts: other GM's, please weigh in, as I'm done!Whelp, that seems to be about it, then. DnD is a cooperative game, and if you have players who simply refuse to cooperate, you don't have a game. Your options, as I see them, if you can't get the two to play together are:
~ get one to DM one campaign, and continue/start DMing another yourself (you can be a player in one, if you like)
~ let people go from your group

This is really all I can see here: if neither are willing to let the other play style "interfere" and you can't reconcile the two simultaneously, this is really all I can see left. Let me tell you from first hand experience, ultimatums can really, really suck - badly. But if you've too many demands, simply say, "Hey, I can't do this, I'm sorry." I know it's hard advice to hear, it's hard to give, but it's all I've got at this point!

[Azisien]

Originally Posted by tacticslion

Azusien, is this what you're looking for? Well, the obvious one is the magma beasts, considering, you know, they're made of magma.

Archons have fire archons and elementals give you the firelasher and rockfire dreadnought, while several demons - especially the undead Immolith - make fine choices and almost all devils have decent fire resistance. Fire giants and fire titans could settle in a volcanoe, and would be likely to do so.

Ifreet, salamanders, nightmares, and azers all add a nice extra-planar touch with a less "generic" feel. You also have some decent draconic selections, with Red Dragons, or Red Dragon Spawn. Alternatively, if you've got the chromatic draconomicon, a fantastic one is the pyroclastic dragon, but you're players have to be really tough for that. Even if you decide to go with the standard kinds, you could create a polychromatic dragon and surprise your players with a white dragon with fire resistance, or something similar.

Undead devotees could consist of flameskulls with their fire resistance and regeneration. Backed up by hell hounds, these could be cultists dedicated to the elemental chaos/primordials, maybe even led by a primordial naga (although those are normally level 25, so yours might want to be 'permanently wounded' or de leveled somesuch).

If you're looking for more esoteric, less obvious stuff, you could pull something like air archons [Manual of the Planes] with the warlock dark pact (focus on poison spells) [class-on-monsters template in DMG, dark pact in Forgotten Realms Player's Guide], mindfire miasma (a type of living breathweapon from the draconomicon [chromatic]), and galeb duhrs with the and the scion of fire template [MM and DMG]: these all work well with a volcano theme while avoiding any "cliche" stereotypes.

Heck, if you really wanna throw the party for a loop, simply drop a nest of pheonixes on them.

Other fiery critters include scorpions (hellfire scorpions) and snakes (flaming cobras) - both of which are great with the combined poison/fire theme. A group of trolls with the fire scion template would be downright evil, but easily doable.Hope that helps! By the way, what edition are you playing?

I'm playing 4E. I guess I was a little vague. There will be a magma beast, but I was thinking more environmental quirks to throw into the mix, beyond the obvious "the volcano erupts." Which it may or may not, as determined mostly by PC success.

[tacticslion]

Originally Posted by Azisien

I'm playing 4E. I guess I was a little vague. There will be a magma beast, but I was thinking more environmental quirks to throw into the mix, beyond the obvious "the volcano erupts." Which it may or may not, as determined mostly by PC success.

I think I see, now. Now to prove I don't!

Skill Challenge IdeasSo, like environmental skill challenges? Whelp. You got your acrobatics, your athletics, your dungeoneering, your endurance, your nature, and your perception as the basic various volcanoe events-related skills. I think they're pretty self explanitory, but then again, my brain's odd, so...
~ Acrobatics: dodging falling rock, fire/steam spurts, evading sudden poisonous fissures and the like, as well as nimbly squeezing through cravasses, stepping carefully over small steps, successfully attaching grappling hooks to their target, etc.
~ Athletics: climbing! Also, moving rocks out of the way (treat as a modified strength check), jumping across yawning chasms, and the like. Also, using the ropes from the afore-mentioned grappling hooks once it caught on.
~ Dungeoneering: figuring out the best way to go to avoid danger, understanding various volcanic features, and recognizing volcanic monsters.
~ Endurance: it's hot. Very hot. Roll and/or lose a healing surge.
~ Nature: similar to dungeoneering, but with more focus on the natural causes of a volcano and more specific generalities of "don't do this" or "usually do that".
~ Perception: it's the skill that lets people do the acrobatics, athletics, dungeoneering, and nature checks!

Unusual skills that might grant one or two successes: heal (here, this'll help reduce the heat-stress/soothe your burns), history (oh, I've heard of this other volcano...), religion ("Vulcan is the deity of volcanoes, so let's give 'im a ritualistic prayer and 1gp offering"), and stealth ("walk cautiously, or we could set off an avalanche of soot").

Over all, I'd recommend a moderately high number of skill challenges with low DCs, little complexity, and comparitively minor penalties for failure, like, "don't fall or take 1d6 damage", or "don't wake the sleeping magma monsters" or "can you take the heat, or do you lose a healing surge?" or "is that a safe cave, or will scalding steam hit you half way down?" type things.

Other weird game-mechanic environmental effects.As far as non-skill specific stuff, the manual of the planes has a few good ones, like elemental seepage (4 contiguous squares of viscous, pulsating, harmless mass; +1/tier to attacks with a specific elemental keyword), hellfire (brilliant light 20 squares, add fire key word to attacks from adjacent; inside take 5/tier ongoing fire damage (save ends), failed save increases by 5/tier, max 3x original), phase rock (looks normal, insubstantial and so are you while within it), and energy crystals (store elemental damage type that hits them, deals 5/tier of it to all adjacent until the end of the attacker's next turn); for trap-like effects a wandering cloud of burning vapor. You could have numerous minor quakes (which leads to dodging rocks ala Death Mountain), or the (long-ago) death by old age of a Red Dragon leading to environmental diffusion: a dragon-shaped rift with "sulfurous geysers or small volcanic vents that emit foul-smelling and acrid smoke, even when not erupting". In other areas, a "permanent wildfire results, never spreading beyond the boundaries of the diffusion and never burning out, regardless of fuel or weather." If you're tired of the fire-and-rock theme, other dragons have other diffusions (all roughly dragon-shaped of their size at death). Push comes to shove, you could literally lift the volcano into a flying volcano (though I don't know how long it would realistically last as a volcano, per se) via an epic ritual (in Player's Guide to Faerun) that the baddies might have discovered and ancient scroll of (meaning they don't have to be that level to cast it).

Other stuff, maybe?Other stuff includes harrowing races across narrow bridges while being chased by fiery gargoyles, avoiding acid rain, or saving a new-hatched infant white dragon. I dunno, is any of this what you're looking for?

[Azisien]

Yes, those are some great suggestions and I'm going to definitely incorporate some and hopefully remember to report back on how they went.

[Meister]

There's a great alternative skill challenge system floating around that I'd recommend checking out. It's the only outside material I'm letting in my 4E campaign. In that system, challenges are held in three segments (which could be three rounds, or three hours, or whatever), and in every segment, each player rolls against a fixed DC determined by party level. The overall number of successes at the end determines success, partial success or failure of the entire challenge. I've found that in the regular skill challenge system I'd have to carefully prepare settings and struggle to include enough opportunities for skill checks to meet the desired complexity, while this one lends itself far more easily to improvisation - you give your players a situation, they tell you how they approach it, they roll for an appropriate skill, done.

Example: I had my players get into a snowstorm en route between two places. Visibility was down, and a layer of snow was quickly building up. Things my players did were grab a shield and start shovelling (Athletics), sing songs to keep everyone's spirits up (Diplomacy), watch out for telltale signs of frostbite (Heal) or curse at the snowstorm (Intimidate - I allowed that because they were already over the requisite number for a full success anyway, and I thought, what the hell, but in retrospect it could also have taken it as another way to keep everyone's spirits up.). A success meant they found an excellent resting place with little problems, a partial success would have meant getting slightly lost, losing two healing surges each but then finding the resting place, and a failure would have meant getting lost completely, losing two healing surges and getting into a fight with goblins.

You can download a pdf here if you're interested.

[tacticslion]

Heyo, I don't need any of the stuff from the adventure I'd asked about... I found it! Woot! So, uh, yeah. Thanks!

[Azisien]

So I decided to throw an Adult Green Dragon at the level 7 party that wouldn't die.

Yeah...that put them in their place. The battle took 3.5 hours and they only won because I designed structural weaknesses in the cavern they were fighting in to deal massive damage to the dragon if they positioned it under the weakness.

[tacticslion]

Originally Posted by Azisien

So I decided to throw an Adult Green Dragon at the level 7 party that wouldn't die.

Yeah...that put them in their place. The battle took 3.5 hours and they only won because I designed structural weaknesses in the cavern they were fighting in to deal massive damage to the dragon if they positioned it under the weakness.

Nice, and excellent use of area for your encounter! Thanks for the update! I really appreciate people who update! Now, Meister, about your thing...

Also, can anyone help me find an undead moon? It's too big to be a battle station!On a slightly more serious note: I'm looking for a book, or rather, more specifically two creatures in said book. I own the book (bought it at Barnes and Noble in Miami), but, because of the way the movers put our stuff when we moved into our house, I can't find it. Unfortunately, I can't recall the exact title, but it's something like "Perilous Foes" or "Ultimate Monsters" or somesuch over-the-top thing and bills itself as campaign and world-ending monsters/events. The specific two items I'm looking for are this kind of undead moon thing, and a living asteroid "mother" creature with poisonous positive energy. What I'm looking for, if anyone has it, are names, rough histories, and the gist of what they are, all found within its description, but none of which I have available right now. Other things that are in the book (for the purpose of jogging memory, if you guys have seen it):
~ a moon filled with negative energy causing the undead to run rampant!
~ a mad "mother" astroid, now made with real corrupt positive energy!
~ some monster or another that basically regrows from his horn (starts with a "Z", I think)
~ Kysuss, the demigod of worms
~ some other stuff I can't remember

EDIT: Thanks 7Days! I now have one of the two I was looking for: Atropus, possibly the first Atropal! Rockin'!
EDIT 2: Thanks Yumil, too! I now have the other I was looking for: Ragnorra, the mother of monsters! Very rockin'! You guys are awesome!