Crimson Echoes

[CelesJessa]

However, douche move or not fanfiction kinda violates three tenants of copyright, Reproduction, Adaptation (i.e. creation of derivative work i.e. to the i.e FANFICTION), and Distribution to the public.

In short, they have a right to protect their characters like rabid dogs fighting over a bone. They aren't wrong, no matter what the internet's culture of self entitlement says.

Well, technically you can still think they're wrong. Yes, they legally have the right to protect their work but if you don't agree with those copyright laws then you can still think the whole system is wrong. Being legal doesn't automatically make it not wrong.

Man, I am such a hippy.

[Token]

Originally Posted by CelesJessa

Well, technically you can still think they're wrong. Yes, they legally have the right to protect their work but if you don't agree with those copyright laws then you can still think the whole system is wrong. Being legal doesn't automatically make it not wrong.

Man, I am such a hippy.

As nice as that sounds, the problem is that copyright laws are meant to help the creators, who (in the case of a rom hack at least* I'm being hypocritical here, there's nothing I love more than a good Pokemon hack ) out much more effort into making a game than a few fans who sat back and tweaked the code a bit. I can understand why people would think that's not right, but from the point of view of the original creators, it is right.

Hopefully that made sense, I just woke up. If it didn't, sorry. :/

[CelesJessa]

Originally Posted by Token

As nice as that sounds, the problem is that copyright laws are meant to help the creators, who (in the case of a rom hack at least* I'm being hypocritical here, there's nothing I love more than a good Pokemon hack ) out much more effort into making a game than a few fans who sat back and tweaked the code a bit. I can understand why people would think that's not right, but from the point of view of the original creators, it is right.

Hopefully that made sense, I just woke up. If it didn't, sorry. :/

I understand, I was just saying that there are people, both creators and people who enjoy creations, that don't agree with copyright laws (it's not just an "internet culture" thing. My computer art/video art professor rants about this all the time and there are lots of fights about appropriation and copyright laws.) therefor, in their eyes, they can still think the the whole thing is wrong.

EDIT: clarification: It's totally okay for Square to think it's right, but it's also okay for people to think it's wrong too.

[Mirai Gen]

Maybe if you hadn't picked an awful example it would have been more clear?

The point was that fangames have no legs to stand on, so they keep going "Hey! Chrono Trigger, wooo, you like CT right? Well then like this!" Since it's made by fans and not by any actual game developer there's nothing there other than the spirit of the old game and the hope the fangame developers know what they're doing. And he's right - I just don't see the harm.

You compared hype built by a fancommunity to hype built by a respected game developer.

[Mike McC]

Originally Posted by Mirai Gen

You compared hype built by a fancommunity to hype built by a respected game developer.

Respected developers can still fail spectacularly, and many times do. Fan communities and projects can produce things like "There Will Be Brawl". There is no immutable reason to give one group any more merit, there is only a bias.

[Azisien]

Originally Posted by Mike McC

Respected developers can still fail spectacularly, and many times do. Fan communities and projects can produce things like "There Will Be Brawl". There is no immutable reason to give one group any more merit, there is only a bias.

I dunno about that. Respected developers have at least gained some respect for something or another! We're being vague but, these developers tend to be run by professionals that are good at making games. Even if we take the industry as a whole, you'd probably have about 10% of games ever that are playable or better.

Fans and modding communities on the other hand take the Sperm Approach to making games. Which is kind of like how Koei makes games, except there's more fans.

[The Kneumatic Pnight]

Originally Posted by Mirai Gen

You compared hype built by a fancommunity to hype built by a respected game developer.

[Jagos]

Here's my entire issue in a nutshell. It's as if we have to ask Square for permission to enjoy a game in a different way. Sure, CE is a derivative work, done for free, at the person's expense of time and resources. Sure, Square is a bunch of soulless entities, sitting on the top of the mountain snubbing their noses at us small peasants who even think of having an idea that's close to their work. Sure, I can site the DMCA's lack of give in this regard, copyright law giving Square too much power, as well as the belief that Square isn't doing anything with the property but milking it unfairly.

It's their property, let them do what they want!

That's not the issue here. When can others have a say in what they like about a game? When can these fan boys, those rabid lovers of a game for complexity of story or gameplay, reveal their love to this company that isn't giving them an updated story, merely rehashes with little improvements?

Well, if they have this story, they can make their own!

Yep, they could. No doubt. Using a hack gives them a start. It already has an engine, story, characters, all which can be reinterpreted in a new way. Sure worked well for starmen.net and even getting me to play mother 3. Works well for Valve and having people forget that they flubbed Half Life when the community can do better. Should they look into making a game? Yes. Maybe they can do it commercially. Or maybe the rules could change so derivative works didn't have to be destroyed because it's based off of other works.

If anything, I'd think it actually enriches a mythos surrounding a game, rather than taking away from it.

But if these guys wanted to work on it, they should work for Squeenix!

Whoa, calm down there. Firstly, these guys probably aren't all THAT great. Maybe they just wanted to reinterpret the story and have fun with it. Maybe they had some ideas that might not work with what Squeenix has cooking. If anything, I would have liked to see this game at 100% than someone arbitrarily kill it for a reason such as "HAAACKS". It drives a community apart. Why do I use Valve so much as an example?

Equalizer - Great weapon for soldier in TF2, created by someone outside of working for Valve.

Black Mesa - Not a Valve game, which people are looking forward to. Done out of love by the fans who liked the first game and thought they could do better than the port Valve came out with.

Let's not even start on Counter Strike's success based on modding Half Life back in the day.

Does Squeenix have their cake? Yep. Not gonna lie. Should they share the damn thing with their fans so they can enjoy it instead of their lawyers?

Sounds like a win-win if they did.

[bluestarultor]

Jagos:
I have to say that in a perfect world, every company would work like Valve and Microsoft. Yes, Microsoft ALSO has the good habit of taking on people who do good work with their systems. Sadly, this is not a perfect world.

See, I really feel for the people who have a story to tell. I have LOTS of stories to tell, and not all of them are my own originals. On the other hand, copyright law is a horrible monster at this point, and if you don't defend yours, you can lose it.

The fact of the matter is you DO have to ask Square to enjoy a game in a "different way." And I highly doubt anyone ever asked. If nothing else, you can pitch an idea, or find some way to show a company your collective interest in a new installment to a series. The worst they can say is no. It's a lot better than having things resort to "no, and delete all your hard work, blood, sweat, tears, and time."

Corporations are out to make money. Pure and simple. Some go about it different ways, but it's a universal truth of a corporation. They'd LOVE to make a product people will buy. By that logic, when someone else does it for them and starts handing it out, even for free, it could be seen as a threat.



I know I've argued a lot of angles in this thread, but there are a lot of good reasons these things happen. Ideally, there would be some way to get everyone a game they like, but nobody is working on the same page, here. There probably aren't very open lines of communication to big companies for this kind of thing, but that doesn't mean it's okay to assume the thing is in a bubble and do whatever you want, either. They DO notice stuff in the outside world. And it would be great if these kinds of projects could happen with some form of consent from corporations, but then you have all sorts of legal shit to deal with, and Square isn't even an American company, so God only knows how complicated that could get.

There are problems with the systems in place that need fixing if everyone is going to be happy. You'd need better lines of communication, better laws, etc. Those aren't in place at the moment, so it's harder for fans to be heard than it could be, harder to please the fans than it could be, and a lot of bad blood on both sides when shit hits the fan.




Actually, the people doing this particular project knew it could happen and were very polite about things. One of them even made an account here at the time to explain the situation and how everyone felt. The letter from Square was also very reasonable and polite, not at all threatening to read. It was all very much a "please stop - okay" sort of deal and the fans were really the ones who exploded. I just thought I'd mention that. For all the shit being flung at both sides, it's not like the corporations are evil and going to shoot your mom and eat a baby, and neither are the people doing these projects for the most part. There's just a bad public reaction from the outside when people all start in with the "but I could have had that!" mentality.

[Funka Genocide]

basic point is, if you didn't create something and nobody who did asked you to continue work on it, do something original.

Fan Fiction for profit (or notoriety) is a cop out because the fan base is built in. You didn't define your own audience, you didn't create your own story, you just picked up where someone else left off. You can call it an homage or a tribute or whatever, but if they tell you they don't want a tribute you stop.

Which it seems the dudes who worked on this project did, so I don't really understand the angst.

They're (Squeenix) still making games for tweens, the target audience today doesn't know what the fuck a Chrono Trigger is and doesn't care. More specifcally they're making games for japanese tweens, which I mean... who knows what they like. (apparently an awful lot of androgyny.)