What have you learned?

[Sithdarth]

Dwarf fortress is a gigantic black pit that will steal your time and your soul and give nothing in return. Plus you can never stop playing.

[CelesJessa]

Originally Posted by Azisien

I really do have a problem with that whole "The Secret" philosophy of just willing with positiveness and you'll achieve whatever you want. It is total bull for most people. Yes, a positive attitude will definitely get you farther in most cases, but to say you can achieve anything is self-delusion.

Yeah, but a positive attitude can get you a lot farther than people seem to think. There's a difference between /thinking/ you can't and actually physically being incapable. Too often people confuse the two.

I mean, obviously it's not, like, magic. No amount of positive thinking will make a blind person suddenly be able to see. Taking it that way is completely missing the point.

[bluestarultor]

Originally Posted by CelesJessa

Yeah, but a positive attitude can get you a lot farther than people seem to think. There's a difference between /thinking/ you can't and actually physically being incapable. Too often people confuse the two.

I mean, obviously it's not, like, magic. No amount of positive thinking will make a blind person suddenly be able to see. Taking it that way is completely missing the point.

In my experience, people use it as a crutch all too often and rely on wanting, seemingly expecting things to fall into their laps.

Besides that, everyone has different abilities. Physics just about killed me. I busted my butt and got weekly tutoring and I had the CONCEPTS down, but I just couldn't hack the math and only pulled a C. I am never going to be the next Stephen Hawking, regardless of what I do. On the other hand, I'm great with language and logic, so programming suits me just fine. Stephen Hawking might take a look at the stuff I do and have his head explode from seeming pages upon pages of gibberish.

To put it this way, a positive outlook might make it easier to bust your butt and work on something, but if your brain just doesn't work that way, you're going to have trouble, while other people will be able to take it up as second nature. You still have to do the butt-busting, which is what people seem to forget.

[Azisien]

I wasn't even thinking physical limitations, more social ones. Often the biggest believers of the philosophy are those that are highly socially mobile anyway, which is great for them sure, but they're a minority.

[CelesJessa]

Alright, you're right, I concede.

I'll correct it: Believing in yourself is pretty nifty and will help you overcome issues that you could already do, but didn't think you could because you didn't believe in yourself. But it's not a magical cure-all that will make you magically capable of doing anything and everything you'd ever want to do. In the mean time, not believing in yourself will hinder you a lot but probably won't stop you from doing things that you are simply awesome at doing..

Huzzah.

[Mike McC]

Originally Posted by Azisien

I wasn't even thinking physical limitations, more social ones. Often the biggest believers of the philosophy are those that are highly socially mobile anyway, which is great for them sure, but they're a minority.

The physical limitation she cited was something that we, in the business, call an example. She could have cited a social limitation as well.

Really, if you believe in yourself, you can achieve anything has more to do with self esteem and positive self image than anything. Having a high self-esteem lends itself to you trying harder and working further to achieve your goals. You don't get much done if you are a depressed sadsack who can barely get out of bed. You need to have a positive self image. You need to believe in yourself.

[BitVyper]

Faith, positive thinking, or whatever you're calling it has a lot of power. It can drive you far beyond your limitations and help you overcome your inhibitions. Of course, it doesn't always turn out great, but there's that whole "try try again," deal, and it helps you with that too. And in the end, I'd rather die living than live dead.

But I've found there's not too much point in extolling the virtues of personal honesty, faith, positive thinking, and all that. It tends to sound like bullshit to anyone who hasn't experienced the power of it.

Often the biggest believers of the philosophy are those that are highly socially mobile anyway, which is great for them sure, but they're a minority.

You're missing all the people for whom life isn't about social class and wealth. There's a tendency to measure how successful people are in their lives based on how much money they have and where they sit the social ladder, but the most powerful and inspiring people I've met do not really care too much about that business beyond what is absolutely necessary. Having faith in yourself helps you gain perspective on what you really want as opposed to what you're supposed to want. Of course, they can be one and the same, but then it's the difference between doing something because you're supposed to and doing something because it's what you want.

I mean, of course there are extreme examples of social limitations, like caste systems and non-persons, but no one ever broke out of those by moping and accepting their lot in life.

[TDK]

-Cars are people too. Most people aren't cutting you off just to be an asshole. We've all seen the situations where you have to cut over and you feel like a dick for it, but its not as if you can turn around and apologize. Cut them some slack.

As said, perspective.

[Azisien]

Originally Posted by Mike McC

The physical limitation she cited was something that we, in the business, call an example. She could have cited a social limitation as well.

Business? Anyway, I don't see why this requires defending, I was stating what I was thinking about when I wrote my first reply. I know it was an example.

Originally Posted by Mike McC

Really, if you believe in yourself, you can achieve anything has more to do with self esteem and positive self image than anything. Having a high self-esteem lends itself to you trying harder and working further to achieve your goals. You don't get much done if you are a depressed sadsack who can barely get out of bed. You need to have a positive self image. You need to believe in yourself.

I don't see how anything anyone has said has disagreed with this.

Originally Posted by BitVyper

You're missing all the people for whom life isn't about social class and wealth. There's a tendency to measure how successful people are in their lives based on how much money they have and where they sit the social ladder, but the most powerful and inspiring people I've met do not really care too much about that business beyond what is absolutely necessary. Having faith in yourself helps you gain perspective on what you really want as opposed to what you're supposed to want. Of course, they can be one and the same, but then it's the difference between doing something because you're supposed to and doing something because it's what you want.

I mean, of course there are extreme examples of social limitations, like caste systems and non-persons, but no one ever broke out of those by moping and accepting their lot in life.

That's actually a great point regarding how to evaluate "success," and I'm a bit guilty of it. It's just a hard thing to evaluate. However, I wasn't insinuating you have to be super rich/powerful/famous.

There aren't just extremes though. Yeah I'm sure there's puppy-dog-sad stories we could cite, in the same way we could cite Oprah-Hollywood-inspiring stories. There are, sadly, marginalized groups beyond these extremes that fall more within the middle that, yes, would be better off with positive outlooks, but still in or near the gutter thanks to limitations (be they physical, social, emotional, genetic). It's not that uncommon, it's just not talked about.

Originally Posted by CelesJessa

Alright, you're right, I concede.

I'll correct it: Believing in yourself is pretty nifty and will help you overcome issues that you could already do, but didn't think you could because you didn't believe in yourself. But it's not a magical cure-all that will make you magically capable of doing anything and everything you'd ever want to do. In the mean time, not believing in yourself will hinder you a lot but probably won't stop you from doing things that you are simply awesome at doing..

Huzzah.

I like it! Especially the sarcasm! I brought up my concerns to the original posting, in honesty, because I'm concerned when people display the original philosophy as something that's not a dangerous, sweeping assumption. As dangerous and sweeping as assuming the philosophy is also total bull and your mental attitude is meaningless. It does also ignore genetic/early developmental outlooks. Some people literally do not change, and to them I think the philosophy is useless and even a little condescending. I prefer a more moderate position, and I'd support those of us with more mobility helping those that do not.



Seriously though, I really should get out of bed...I just...you know...I'm so depressed and stuff.

[Nikose Tyris]

- It is better to seek permission then ask forgiveness, because in the time you are seeking permission, the delays will eventually make your goal pointless and you can pat yourself on the back for avoiding a potential mistake.

- Despite having redundant organs it's better to have each one.

- Your religious friends are the most likely to help you hide a body and keep quiet about it.