Gay People And Their Right To Militarize

[Yrcrazypa]

Originally Posted by Loyal

I always thought the DADT/gays in the military in general thing was a little silly. If I'm abroad with a gun, out to fight, kill, or die at a moments notice, the last thing I'm gonna worry about is a guy checking out my ass.

Well, for one, not everyone in the military is in combat. There are a large number of people in the military that could go over twenty years of only ever firing a weapon for training. And you'd be surprised anyway, some people would care, the bigots that they are. Remember, bigots don't have to use logical thinking, because bigotry is illogical in the first place.

[Premmy]

Originally Posted by Yrcrazypa

Well, for one, not everyone in the military is in combat. There are a large number of people in the military that could go over twenty years of only ever firing a weapon for training. And you'd be surprised anyway, some people would care, the bigots that they are. Remember, bigots don't have to use logical thinking, because bigotry is illogical in the first place.

It really does bug me when people equate racism/sexism/homophobia to hate and bigotry. It really is'nt like that. And thinking that way does'nt do anything to solve the problem.

[bluestarultor]

Originally Posted by Premonitions

It really does bug me when people equate racism/sexism/homophobia to hate and bigotry. It really is'nt like that. And thinking that way does'nt do anything to solve the problem.

I think you need to look up the terms. If nothing else, they're at the very least closely related.

Like, if someone is openly racist, I think it's safe to call them bigoted. You don't go spewing bile about "those damn niggers" if you, y'know, like black people.

To break it down,

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

ism
  /ˈɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [iz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
a distinctive doctrine, theory, system, or practice: This is the age of isms.
Origin:
extracted from words with the suffix -ism

combined with race means a doctrine or system of race, which is a nice way of saying that you either believe in or actually ENFORCE racial boundaries. Homophobia on its own means, in the literal sense, as improperly-expressed as it is, an irrational fear of homosexuals. A better word might be orientationism. Homosexuals are feared, hated, and discriminated against. Where's the love and acceptance in that?



Seriously, we have the words for a reason, and we shouldn't be trying to water down the meanings. Everyone knows what they mean and what they mean isn't exactly going out and buying them flowers.

[Funka Genocide]

well all those ism's might not necessarily equate to hatred, but they do most definitely equate to bigotry. It's kind of the base definition.

You can obviously be a racist that doesn't hate other races, only sees them as inferior. You could be a sexist that doesn't hate the opposite gender, etc. etc.

[bluestarultor]

Originally Posted by Funka Genocide

well all those ism's might not necessarily equate to hatred, but they do most definitely equate to bigotry. It's kind of the base definition.

You can obviously be a racist that doesn't hate other races, only sees them as inferior. You could be a sexist that doesn't hate the opposite gender, etc. etc.

I think there's a certain amount of hatred in seeing a group of people as inferior. You'd LOVE to hear what some of my grandparents' friends had to say about Obama getting elected.

My grandparents, of course, voted for him.

The point being that if you see a group as inferior, you MIGHT be able to just pity them, but that doesn't hold up well when they start showing just how not-inferior they are, which can result in fear, hatred, or both.



Edit:

Originally Posted by The Argent Lord

I know this was a ways back, but I just wanna point out that, according to all of western philosophy, this is wrong. Ethics is founded on the very principle that there is an objective standard of morality that isn't culturally based.

Not really, actually. Ethics is founded on the common factors to the society or societies in participation. Like, if a guy screws something up in the business world in America, he might get canned, but in China, he might get executed. We'd consider that kind of treatment unethical, but ethics are NOT culturally universal.

[Premmy]

Originally Posted by bluestarultor

I think you need to look up the terms. If nothing else, they're at the very least closely related.

No, not really. Closely related? only in that they're frequently connected. If everyone looked alike, bigots would be bigoted to someone

Like, if someone is openly racist, I think it's safe to call them bigoted. You don't go spewing bile about "those damn niggers" if you, y'know, like black people.

Yeah, if someone is openly bigoted, it's safe to call them bigoted. Bigotry is neither the most important aspect of racism, nor even a central aspect. And constantly equating the two muddies the issue.

To break it down,

combined with race means a doctrine or system of race, which is a nice way of saying that you either believe in or actually ENFORCE racial boundaries.

It's a direct way of saying you have policies and systemic approaches to race, a fictional construct in and of itself.

It has nothing to do with how that is expressed or what fuels it. The common thread of "Racism=Dick" is ignorant to all the very nice people who do and say racist things that don't seem hatefilled in the least bit.

It also is used by dicks who are racist, but not hate-fueld, to diffuse accusations of racism with "I don't hate anybody" and other foolishness.

Homophobia on its own means, in the literal sense, as improperly-expressed as it is, an irrational fear of homosexuals. A better word might be orientationism. Homosexuals are feared, hated, and discriminated against. Where's the love and acceptance in that?

Homosexuals are also treated all kinds of weird by people that generally like them, people who are "okay" with it, but still act weird, and all kinds of other things that have nothing to do with interpersonal relationships or hatred.

Seriously, we have the words for a reason, and we shouldn't be trying to water down the meanings. Everyone knows what they mean and what they mean isn't exactly going out and buying them flowers.

Everybody does'nt know exactly what they mean, as evidenced by people who think Neo-nazis and such are at all important to the issue of racism.

If you ask them, they will eagerly and angrily tell you how they hate pretty much anything. Their racism is not an issue of race so much as it's an issue of being crazy as all hell and expressing that through racism.

There are plenty of people who have no knowledge, concern, or issues concerning racism who still do and say racist things for a wide variety of reasons.

[bluestarultor]

Originally Posted by Premonitions

Yeah, if someone is openly bigoted, it's safe to call them bigoted. Bigotry is neither the most important aspect of racism, nor even a central aspect. And constantly equating the two muddies the issue.

By all means, explain what defines an "ism," then. Because if you have racism, you have someone who simply doesn't like a group based on race. If you have elitism, you have someone who dislikes people based on status. Please explain how none of this is in any way related to bigotry. It's by definition singling out a group as inferior or outside your own and inferior by extension.

It has nothing to do with how that is expressed or what fuels it. The common thread of "Racism=Dick" is ignorant to all the very nice people who do and say racist things that don't seem hatefilled in the least bit.

Having an "ism" has nothing to do with motivations. It's the end result, which is that it's what a person ultimately believes. But by all means, give me an expression of racism that is not in some way harmful. Voicing racist words is disrespectful. Calling a guy a "porch monkey," "dego," "gook," or whatever epithet applies is not going to endear you to him. It would be different if you were eighty or something and you don't have better terms, but I don't think anyone on NPF is quite that old. Likewise, refusing a person service based on race is unthinkable these days to most people. Like that guy who refused to marry the black couple. That was hella racist, and while maybe he wasn't nasty about it, it still didn't show much acceptance.

In an era where there's little that you can do or say that won't offend someone, trying to pass racist behavior off as acceptable is ridiculous.

It also is used by dicks who are racist, but not hate-fueld, to diffuse accusations of racism with "I don't hate anybody" and other foolishness.

This is true, but while they don't "hate" people, they certainly aren't doing them any favors. It comes down to how you define hate. You could have the seething, enraged sort of hate, or you could have the more passive lack of empathy. It's the difference between stabbing a guy and not calling the cops when someone stabs him. In the second case, you're not actually doing anything, but you're certainly not doing anything positive like would normally be expected.

Homosexuals are also treated all kinds of weird by people that generally like them, people who are "okay" with it, but still act weird, and all kinds of other things that have nothing to do with interpersonal relationships or hatred.

And your point is? Maybe those people are just mildly uncomfortable, but not homophobic?

Everybody does'nt know exactly what they mean, as evidenced by people who think Neo-nazis and Such are at All important to the issue of racism.

If you ask them, they will eagerly and angrily tell you how they hate pretty much anything. Their racism is not an issue of race so much as it's an issue of being crazy as all hell and expressing that through racism.

Yet I have yet to see an example provided where racism expresses a great love of other races. See, that's the point. Yes, skinheads might be crazy mofos, but they're not handing out boxes of candy. They're hating, just like other racists.

There ar eplenty of people who have no knowledge, concern, or issues concerning racism who still do and say racist things for a wide variety of reasons.

Yes, and my grandfather is one of them. Ask him about black people, and he'll never use the term "black." Sometimes, he'll be polite enough to say "negroes," but often it's just "niggers." It's the time he came from. But then you have to ask whether that's truly racism on his part (hint, it's not, and he has never had anything against other races). By definition, some of the things he says are racist, but none of the things he DOES are, and he certainly isn't. And in the context he came from, the things he said weren't considered racist, but the norm. This is where you have to draw the line between the act and the belief. My grandpa does not believe in racism as a valid institution. He simply lacks the skills to function in an updated society.

[Premmy]

Originally Posted by bluestarultor

By all means, explain what defines an "ism," then. Because if you have racism, you have someone who simply doesn't like a group based on race. If you have elitism, you have someone who dislikes people based on status. Please explain how none of this is in any way related to bigotry. It's by definition singling out a group as inferior or outside your own and inferior by extension.

It's by definition designing a sytemic means of action and thought based on the deciding factor, whether that be race, culture, or what have you. This has nothing to do with hatred because:

1. It is not always(and rarely is because you as an individual have little say in how everyone else does things) YOUR system, but a system you take part in in order to live in a society.
2. more often than not, these systems are ingrained in a system that has nothing to do with anyone else outside the designers, I.E. you design a system for yourself(Individualism), then someone else comes into the picture.

This is BAD because:

• The factors of these systems are rarely valid, and frequently inconsequential, or even nonexistant, like race.
• SOMEONE's getting the short end of the stick in this equation. If I only think of myself, or If I don't think at all and just do I'm going to effect the people around me in some way, and you can't live in the world and do things without negatively affecting something

Having an "ism" has nothing to do with motivations. It's the end result, which is that it's what a person ultimately believes.

This extends to cultures of people as a whole, as a society is essentially the beliefs and ideas that dictate how groups of people behave. Since the society dictates how you as an individual act within it, if the society operates along this or that "ism" then you, through no fault of your own, will follow these rules.

But by all means, give me an expression of racism that is not in some way harmful. Voicing racist words is disrespectful. Calling a guy a "porch monkey," "dego," "gook," or whatever epithet applies is not going to endear you to him.

I don't recall arguing "Racism is totally cool, you guys, chill out" I said "Hatred is not the essential factor in racism, homophobia, sexism, imperialism, e.t.c., and acting like it does makes it harder to address these issues."

It would be different if you were eighty or something and you don't have better terms, but I don't think anyone on NPF is quite that old.

No, it just means you were doing prejudiced things with no ill intent behind them.

Likewise, refusing a person service based on race is unthinkable these days to most people. Like that guy who refused to marry the black couple. That was hella racist, and while maybe he wasn't nasty about it, it still didn't show much acceptance.

This has no bearing on what I've said.

In an era where there's little that you can do or say that won't offend someone, trying to pass racist behavior off as acceptable is ridiculous.

Never in the history of human society was there many, or even any in most circumstances, options for behavior you could take that
would'nt effect the people around you.

This is true, but while they don't "hate" people, they certainly aren't doing them any favors.

Nope, but they're probably doing SOMEONE a favor. That's how it works.
Does'nt mean it's good, just means that's how it works.

It comes down to how you define hate. You could have the seething, enraged sort of hate, or you could have the more passive lack of empathy. It's the difference between stabbing a guy and not calling the cops when someone stabs him. In the second case, you're not actually doing anything, but you're certainly not doing anything positive like would normally be expected.

Or, it's the difference between accidentally bumping into someone when walking down a small corridor and knocking them down while walking down ample space.

In the first case, you're forced to deal in certain ways, the polite thing to do is say "oops, sorry about that, small hallways, whatcha gonna do?" and the rude thing to do is say 'HEY I'm WALKIN HERE!" either way, there is no intent or maliciousness in the inital action, it's just how you're forced to interact because someone else built the hallway.

In the second intance, which is more like your view of racism, you don't have to do it, but you do cause you're a jerk.

And your point is? Maybe those people are just mildly uncomfortable, but not homophobic?

Or maybe they have homohopbic tendencies and are otherwise nice, decent people?

Yet I have yet to see an example provided where racism expresses a great love of other races. See, that's the point. Yes, skinheads might be crazy mofos, but they're not handing out boxes of candy. They're hating, just like other racists.

Once again proving how little hate or love has to do with the issues. Every neo-Nazi(skinheads are just a different kind of punk, horribly misrepresented by american media) does'nt go out and beat up the people they hate. And they hate a hell of a lot of people.

But everybody (in America and many western countries/colonies) interacts with one another in a system inherently designed for Straight, White, able-bodied, men, and has to conform to those ideas and systems which, by virtue of having jack-all to do with anybody else, and thus not taking them and their needs into consideration, will directly disadvantage anybody who's Not Straight, White,male, and preferably christian. Does'nt mean anybody's hating anybody, just means they're taking part in it.

Yes, and my grandfather is one of them. Ask him about black people, and he'll never use the term "black." Sometimes, he'll be polite enough to say "negroes," but often it's just "niggers." It's the time he came from. But then you have to ask whether that's truly racism on his part (hint, it's not, and he has never had anything against other races).

That's engaging in racist behavior, des'nt mean he's racist, that's never the point. Just means he's done something racist.

S'not that big a deal if you don't think of racism as a hate-based thing.

By definition, some of the things he says are racist, but none of the things he DOES are, and he certainly isn't. And in the context he came from, the things he said weren't considered racist, but the norm.

Just because nobody calls it such doesnt mean it is'nt.

This is where you have to draw the line between the act and the belief. My grandpa does not believe in racism as a valid institution. He simply lacks the skills to function in an updated society.

Exactly my point,it has jack-all to do with hate or love, In other words How individuals feel and It's all about what is done and constantly making the issue out to be one of hate means when you say "Hey, that was kinda racist/homophobic/sexist" it comes off as 'hey, that was kinda hateful" which is a problem, and just serves to make things worse.

Originally Posted by Bob the Mercenary

So, the consensus is our world would be a far better place with no military or national borders...but since people will never eliminate all shreds of nationalism and/or pure evil, this perfect world will never happen and this entire conversation has been to arrive at this point?

I'd like to think the discussion was enjoyable, but then I'm weird like that.

[bluestarultor]

*sigh* Okay, you know what? You can argue with me all you like, but I'm going to let you try to argue with the dictionary at this point.

Racism: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

Homophobia: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homophobia

You'll notice such words as "antipathy," "contempt," "hatred," and "intolerance" right there in the definitions.



Loyal is right, sources are an amazing tool. :J

[Loyal]

Originally Posted by Yrcrazypa

Well, for one, not everyone in the military is in combat. There are a large number of people in the military that could go over twenty years of only ever firing a weapon for training. And you'd be surprised anyway, some people would care, the bigots that they are. Remember, bigots don't have to use logical thinking, because bigotry is illogical in the first place.

I said I find it silly.