Premmy's Big-Long Anti-Racism thread.

[Funka Genocide]

I'd just like to point out that I am against the concept of cultural tradition. I feel that's one of the biggest divisive factors in interpersonal relationships. Also, nationalism is a bunch of bullshit too.

If people stopped identifying themselves with artificially reinforced organizations they'd probably have an easier time identifying with their fellow man.

But as a very basic example, let's take Tommy and Billy.

Let's say that Tommy and Billy had very similar lives. Tommy grew up in a one bedroom apartment with his 2 other siblings, his mother raising him mainly on government welfare programs and a few brief spurts of employment. Tommy never knew his father and as a consequence of general neglect from his only parent coupled with poverty, he grew up a rather angry young man. He got in a lot of fights as a child and, since his mother never emphasized the importance of education, he did poorly in school. He dropped out of high school at the age of 16 and, with very few professional prospects he took to selling drugs in his community to support himself.

Let's say that Billy grew up in a mobile home with his physically abusive alcoholic father and mother. Let's assume that his mother left when he was 8 years old and that his father became progressively more abusive over the years. Billy as a consequence of general neglect and poverty was a very angry young man who did poorly in school because his father never emphasized the importance of education. Billy too dropped out of high school at 16 after falling in with a gang, subsequently he became involved in petty crimes and occasionally armed robbery of convenience stores.

Lets say that Tommy is white and Billy is black.

Where will they be at 30?

If you're assuming that the Association of Concerned White People is going to mail Tommy a check to bail him out you're wrong. The truth is both of these boys are fucked because nobody gave a shit about them. It's has nothing to do with race and everything to do with a cycle of poverty. The fact that Tommy and Billy's parents never had it together enough to offer them the support they needed for success had infinitely more to do with their subsequent failures than the color of their skin ever did, and to assume otherwise is ridiculous.

I'm of the opinion that personal responsibility is something a lot of people living in poverty don't understand fully. Regardless of race or ethnicity, people who spend their entire lives in poverty while churning out babies like fucking churros are wrong. I suppose from a macro level, top-down perspective one might assume that Racism is to blame for all those downtrodden minorities (by and large ignoring the majority that are also living in poverty) and say "something needs to be done!' with that something remaining as mysterious and elusive as ever.

That something is people growing the fuck up and living up to their responsibilities.

[Premmy]

It's just occurred to me that you've not addressed my original post at all, and just expressed your anger on the subject. And I just played into your hands. Silly me, finding some nice links though.

[01d55]

Originally Posted by Premonitions

edit: and Geminex, I swear to GOD, change the avatar! It makes me want to punch the world.

A man like you "does'nt" have any right to complain about that sort of thing.

[Funka Genocide]

Originally Posted by Premonitions

It's just occurred to me that you've not addressed my original post at all, and just expressed your anger on the subject. And I just played into your hands. Silly me, finding some nice links though.

You specifically said "white people rule the world."

So what you're basically saying is that there's some global network that all white people have access to, where ostensibly they discuss ways of staying on top and keeping those filthy minorities down?

That's as preposterous as assuming all black people are friends.

Rich people rule the world. Poor white people are just as fucked as anyone.

Maybe I'm just thinking too literally here though, as racism to me is discrimination based on genetics. To be precise, your genetic makeup and physical traits are the things you are being judged on and complex social behaviors or dispositions are being attributed to your physical makeup.

What we have today (barring a few extreme examples) is not actually racism. It's is classism and cultural discrimination. A middle class family with a mortgage and 2 kids living in the suburbs that happens to be black isn't going to face any substantial racial backlash unless they live in some weird ass fucked up racist community. A grown man wearing a t-shirt 3 sizes too big that walks into a boutique shop is probably going to suffer a great deal of discrimination however, regardless of his race (unless of course he's covered in diamonds and platinum, in which case I suppose he's precisely the sort of clientele such stores would be looking for.)

[Archbio]

You specifically said "white people rule the world."

So what you're basically saying is that there's some global network that all white people have access to, where ostensibly they discuss ways of staying on top and keeping those filthy minorities down?

That's as preposterous as assuming all black people are friends.

It is preposterous. A preposterous reading of Premonition's statement.

You're just handwaving racism away by saying that it's all about socioeconomics... and then handwaving socioeconomic issues away by saying that it's all about personal responsability. Repeating these things isn't going to make them true.

[Premmy]

I also said White People aren't normal.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Funka Genocide

Rich people rule the world. Poor white people are just as fucked as anyone.

The correct answer is really "a few rich white men with citizenship in certain nation-states north of the equator rule a vastly disproportionate percentage of the world."

And that's disappointing news to everyone...even a majority of white men north of the equator are worse off under such facts, insofar as a conglomeration of wealth effectively prevents something like 4 or 5 billion unique minds from participating in the economic, scientific, artistic, and political development of Earth's society.

(Communism, even in its idealized form, sure as hell isn't the answer to these problems, though. We need to eliminate scarcity of resources by finding more resources for everyone, not by arbitrarily limiting everyone's resources to a select amount that is too small. Funding scientific advancements over defense budgets and funding things like space exploration will help address these issues. The further humanity advances scientifically, the less scarce our resources will become, and the more everyone in future generations can be equally enriched to a far greater extent than we could possibly imagine. The alternative...dividing our scarce present amount of resources among 6 billion people...would have disastrous consequences and cannot seriously be considered.)

There's a certain reasoning underlying that the totality of the statement must be addressed and isolating just the "white" or "male" or "rich" or "few" or "certain nation-states" components on their own only partially addresses the problem. But "white," "male," "rich," and "few" are all almost certainly parts of the problem. We can address the individual components while acknowledging that the full breadth of the fundamental issue cannot be accurately summed in a single argument.

EDIT: Aww man, everyone ignored my massively long post. =P

[DFM]

Originally Posted by Funka Genocide

You specifically said "white people rule the world."

So what you're basically saying is that there's some global network that all white people have access to, where ostensibly they discuss ways of staying on top and keeping those filthy minorities down?

That's as preposterous as assuming all black people are friends.

Rich people rule the world. Poor white people are just as fucked as anyone.

The fact that our society is as utterly racist/sexist as it is without an ancient cabal of evil white men propagating it should tell you how serious and difficult to eliminate the problem is.

Rich people rule the world, yes, I think we can all agree on that. What we're trying to point out is that all the rich people are white. If racism was the non-issue you claim it to be, if it really wasn't part of the core of our entire social hierarchy, this would not be the case. The poor would be oppressed by a racially diverse group of overlords.

I'm not going to touch the idea that poor people are poor because they're stupid and lazy, I don't think it really deserves acknowledgement.

Edit: Thread moving fast

[Premmy]

I'd also like to note my focus on the issue of culture, as that's my personal kick.

[Funka Genocide]

Originally Posted by Archbio

It is preposterous. A preposterous reading of Premonition's statement.

You're just handwaving racism away by saying that it's all about socioeconomics... and then handwaving socioeconomic issues away by saying that it's all about personal responsability. Repeating these things isn't going to make them true.

Well, I believe that there are lingering effects from ACTUAL racism that still hamper society today. (You know, the kind of racism where white people owned other people as property after kidnapping them and transporting them across oceans, or the kind of racism where "separate but equal" was considered a step forward, or basically the real "holy shit this is evil and ruining people's lives" kind of racism that civil rights leaders have been fighting since they first had the right to do so.) but the tools are in place to allow anyone to dig themselves out of poverty and into a decent life.

I am not saying the elevating yourself out of poverty is easy, but I would consider it necessary. Necessary and entirely feasible.

I am saying that poverty is the major concern, not racism. What you need to do is funnel more money into poverty stricken communities and somehow reeducate people into accepting that education is a positive thing. How many young underprivileged children go through their school careers hating the system and performing poorly due to apathy and frustration? Where are their parents? I mean every kid at one point or another gets fed up with school, that's why parents are there to keep their children focused and positive, where the fuck are the parents?

I mean, I don't know what you propose to do. Throw money at the problem until it goes away I guess?

No, I'm not going to put the blinders on and accept that everyone is just a hapless victim with no way out, that's the kind of bullshit drug dealers and murderers pull out of their ass when they're caught. I didn't have a choice, society made me do it.

Fuck that. There's always a choice, and where there's a choice there's the possibility of making the wrong one, and that's your own god damn fault.

Sure, you could sum it up as me hand waving all societies evils away with a simplistic answer, but I believe personal responsibility and accountability aren't all that simplistic at all.

Also, poor people are poor because they're born that way, they remain poor because they lack the tools necessary to succeed. As to why they lack these tools, it is mainly the fault of their parents in early development, after which point it becomes their own responsibility into adulthood.