"Global Warming" or "Interesting Debate On Munk"

Seil · 03-06-2010, 02:33 AM

I know we've had climate change debates in the past, but I found this really interesting.

Here's a transcript of the debate, for those that don't want to watch an hour-long internet video.

I was only able to catch the last part of this on the radio, but it was when George was talking about...

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Monbiot

I was with one of the relatives of the people in the cattle camp. About 10 miles before we got there this man suddenly burst into tears and he was screaming and wailing and crying and I asked him what on earth was going on. And he said, can�t you see? And I said, I�m sorry, I can�t see. And as I got closer and closer, I did see. There were vultures hanging in the air just above this cattle camp. And when we arrived, all that remained of the 98 people who lived there were their skulls and backbones. The rest had been eaten by hyenas. The Toposa people had come in the night and surrounded this cattle camp and machine gunned it with AK-47s and G3s. They killed 96 people that night. There were two that got away and they killed them the next day.

They killed them because they were desperate and they were desperate because of droughts. And that drought almost certainly was a result of climate change.

This is what we are up against. Not the esoteric abstractions and the figures and the squabbles we�ve been having over spreadsheets and computer programs and what this figure says and what that figure says. This is about life and death to these people � people I came to love and respect when I was there. And it was seeing that, which turned me into a climate change campaigner.

I thought that it was neat because it provided a different set of problems arising from climate change rather than It's fucking hot and we're killing all the whales!

Short version of Bjorn's argument.
Short version of George's argument.

Amake · 03-06-2010, 03:12 AM

98? More people than that probably freeze to death in my depopulated country's capital any given winter. And that's way down in the comfy south compared to where I live. And we got a new ice age on the way. I look out the window at the six feet of snow blocking the door of my balcony and hope for some global warming.

If it's happening, and if it's our fault which I'm not convinced of because people love to overestimate our ability to impact the planet, and if we can do anything about it, I'm not sure we should. Of course using less environmentally destructive fuel for our excessive consumption of power should be an end in itself, and I understand that's the most important thing, so maybe we're on the same page.

Professor Smarmiarty · 03-06-2010, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Invisible Queen

98? More people than that probably freeze to death in my depopulated country's capital any given winter. And that's way down in the comfy south compared to where I live. And we got a new ice age on the way. I look out the window at the six feet of snow blocking the door of my balcony and hope for some global warming.

Seriously, what?

Quote:

If it's happening, and if it's our fault which I'm not convinced of because people love to overestimate our ability to impact the planet, and if we can do anything about it, I'm not sure we should. Of course using less environmentally destructive fuel for our excessive consumption of power should be an end in itself, and I understand that's the most important thing, so maybe we're on the same page.

Seriously, what?

Amake · 03-06-2010, 07:11 AM

...Should I repeat myself, or do you need a moment to collect your thoughts or something?

Geminex · 03-06-2010, 07:47 AM

Perhaps just rephrase your post. At the moment it seems to say that you
a) Do not believe humans are causing climate change (which is already quite arguable)
b) See Global Warming as a good thing because
c) Less people would freeze to death in winter,
d) which would outweigh the massacre described in OP.

...

I'm thinking I must have misread your post, though, because if that is, indeed, what you meant to say, I must join Smarty in saying
Seriously, what?

So yeah, perhaps clarification. Or, alternately, justification.

Professor Smarmiarty · 03-06-2010, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Invisible Queen

...Should I repeat myself, or do you need a moment to collect your thoughts or something?

I was trying to workout whether you are trolling or not.
Seriously,global warming is good because less people will die in the winter...... I mean holy shit is that stupid. I mean maybe in the intervening time we manage to evolve photosynthesis then that is a valid complaint.

Ibian · 03-06-2010, 09:24 AM

Climate change is happening. The trick is, it has always been happening, long before we started influencing our surroundings.

And that's the basic problem with these types of discussions. When people speak of "climate change", it is almost always implied to mean "man-made climate change", and almost as often "it's bad".

And, well, some of it can be. For example, if we had done nothing, if we had never evolved out of our old hunter-gatherer lifestyle, we would eventually have a new ice age. It might even have been here now.

But that's assuming the people saying we have a meaningful influence on the climate are right. However, under that same assumption, we don't want to reverse what we have been doing for the past several hundred years, because a new ice age would be catastrophic on a scale that slowly rising sea levels and somewhat warmer temperatures could never be. (by the way, the sea level has also been rising since long before we started doing anything about it)

As to the story here. Blame the trigger happy people with guns.

Amake · 03-06-2010, 09:33 AM

Less people dying sounds like justification enough to me. Maybe more people die from drought and heat and bad weather that may or may not be caused by global warming, than who die from cold and isolation and icicles falling on them? If we could be sure about that I guess that'd change my priorities. But I'm saying the winters in my part of the world suck. My friends are cold all the time, it's a bother to get from point A to point B and a lot of energy is wasted on shoveling snow around and keeping houses hot. It's lifeless and dull. I'd much prefer to be wrestling with floods and hurricanes, as long as the temperature stays above 0�C. Or even above -25.

Just thought I would offer a rarely seen perspective on the issue.

Green Spanner · 03-06-2010, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Invisible Queen

Just thought I would offer a rarely seen perspective on the issue.

There's a reason it's a rarely seen perspective...

Amake · 03-06-2010, 10:25 AM

The reason being that fewer people live near the poles, and maybe are afraid to speak against the majority.

Not that I'd put my own interests before those of the majority, just pointing out that they exist. And I should say there's plenty of room here in North Sweden for anyone who thinks the weather is too hot. I think we have a new tourist-attracting slogan: Come and freeze your butt off!

03-06-2010, 03:12 AM	#2
Amake Keeper of the new Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: A place without judgment Posts: 4,506	98? More people than that probably freeze to death in my depopulated country's capital any given winter. And that's way down in the comfy south compared to where I live. And we got a new ice age on the way. I look out the window at the six feet of snow blocking the door of my balcony and hope for some global warming. If it's happening, and if it's our fault which I'm not convinced of because people love to overestimate our ability to impact the planet, and if we can do anything about it, I'm not sure we should. Of course using less environmentally destructive fuel for our excessive consumption of power should be an end in itself, and I understand that's the most important thing, so maybe we're on the same page. __________________ Hope insistent, trust implicit, love inherent, life immersed

03-06-2010, 07:11 AM	#4
Amake Keeper of the new Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: A place without judgment Posts: 4,506	...Should I repeat myself, or do you need a moment to collect your thoughts or something? __________________ Hope insistent, trust implicit, love inherent, life immersed

03-06-2010, 09:24 AM	#7
Ibian Goomba Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 20	Climate change is happening. The trick is, it has always been happening, long before we started influencing our surroundings. And that's the basic problem with these types of discussions. When people speak of "climate change", it is almost always implied to mean "man-made climate change", and almost as often "it's bad". And, well, some of it can be. For example, if we had done nothing, if we had never evolved out of our old hunter-gatherer lifestyle, we would eventually have a new ice age. It might even have been here now. But that's assuming the people saying we have a meaningful influence on the climate are right. However, under that same assumption, we don't want to reverse what we have been doing for the past several hundred years, because a new ice age would be catastrophic on a scale that slowly rising sea levels and somewhat warmer temperatures could never be. (by the way, the sea level has also been rising since long before we started doing anything about it) As to the story here. Blame the trigger happy people with guns. Last edited by Ibian; 03-06-2010 at 09:34 AM.

03-06-2010, 09:33 AM	#8
Amake Keeper of the new Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: A place without judgment Posts: 4,506	Obviously most people who freeze to death are homeless, so they don't count Less people dying sounds like justification enough to me. Maybe more people die from drought and heat and bad weather that may or may not be caused by global warming, than who die from cold and isolation and icicles falling on them? If we could be sure about that I guess that'd change my priorities. But I'm saying the winters in my part of the world suck. My friends are cold all the time, it's a bother to get from point A to point B and a lot of energy is wasted on shoveling snow around and keeping houses hot. It's lifeless and dull. I'd much prefer to be wrestling with floods and hurricanes, as long as the temperature stays above 0�C. Or even above -25. Just thought I would offer a rarely seen perspective on the issue. __________________ Hope insistent, trust implicit, love inherent, life immersed Last edited by Amake; 03-06-2010 at 09:36 AM.

03-06-2010, 10:25 AM	#10
Amake Keeper of the new Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: A place without judgment Posts: 4,506	Underdogs of the climate wars The reason being that fewer people live near the poles, and maybe are afraid to speak against the majority. Not that I'd put my own interests before those of the majority, just pointing out that they exist. And I should say there's plenty of room here in North Sweden for anyone who thinks the weather is too hot. I think we have a new tourist-attracting slogan: Come and freeze your butt off! __________________ Hope insistent, trust implicit, love inherent, life immersed Last edited by Amake; 03-06-2010 at 10:29 AM.

03-06-2010, 07:47 AM	#5
Geminex SOM3WH3R3 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,606	Perhaps just rephrase your post. At the moment it seems to say that you a) Do not believe humans are causing climate change (which is already quite arguable) b) See Global Warming as a good thing because c) Less people would freeze to death in winter, d) which would outweigh the massacre described in OP. ... I'm thinking I must have misread your post, though, because if that is, indeed, what you meant to say, I must join Smarty in saying Seriously, what? So yeah, perhaps clarification. Or, alternately, justification.