Pre-emptive Sony News thread.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by bluestarultor

No need to get snippy. And, uh, what the hell were you expecting? It's test software. It's a ten-minute video showing off its technical capabilities, not a sneak peek into the next blockbuster.

Admittedly, it would have helped if the guy using the control system didn't totally suck at games, but even as uncoordinated as he was, it did everything exactly as he did, so I really don't see what the problem is.

The problem is that you're expecting everything to work exactly according to a tech demo put together and done by Sony people. Maybe if you had a link to some people whose paycheck didn't depend on making it look like the BEST THING EVAR, I'd maybe give you some credit. Instead, from my perspective, you're pretty much saying "The Wii didn't live up to its tech demos but the Arc will because shutupshutupshutup."

On top of all this, I honestly can't see any games that try to use this being anything beyond gimmicky and terrible. It's a ripoff of a control scheme that I'm not too fond of even on the system it was invented for. I'd bet dollars to dimes that the games that will use this will utterly fail to use it in an actually useful or interesting way. Most of the games that do use the Arc will be *gasp* shovelware crap because that's what the target demographic will buy. There may be a handful of games that are decent or even more than decent, but I expect anything that good will also have a normal control scheme that will be superior to the Arc in every goddamn way. In fact, I expect Sony's grab at the market for shovelware and motion controls will fall flat on its face because why would publishers choose the PS3 when they can opt for the Wii, which is much cheaper to develop for.

EDIT: I mean, I'll concede that I'm being a douche about it, but at this point I'm honestly baffled about how anyone can be excited for Arc or Natal.

[bluestarultor]

Originally Posted by NonCon

The problem is that you're expecting everything to work exactly according to a tech demo put together and done by Sony people. Maybe if you had a link to some people whose paycheck didn't depend on making it look like the BEST THING EVAR, I'd maybe give you some credit. Instead, from my perspective, you're pretty much saying "The Wii didn't live up to its tech demos but the Arc will because shutupshutupshutup."

On top of all this, I honestly can't see any games that try to use this being anything beyond gimmicky and terrible. It's a ripoff of a control scheme that I'm not too fond of even on the system it was invented for. I'd bet dollars to dimes that the games that will use this will utterly fail to use it in an actually useful or interesting way. Most of the games that do use the Arc will be *gasp* shovelware crap because that's what the target demographic will buy. There may be a handful of games that are decent or even more than decent, but I expect anything that good will also have a normal control scheme that will be superior to the Arc in every goddamn way. In fact, I expect Sony's grab at the market for shovelware and motion controls will fall flat on its face because why would publishers choose the PS3 when they can opt for the Wii, which is much cheaper to develop for.

NonCon, you remember when the Wii was released right along with MotionPlus? No? Good, we're still in the same reality, then.

Put simply, they're promising full 1:1 off the bat and have shown their system has it. Wii promised, or at least implied, the same thing and didn't. And really, you said yourself that the tech demo looked like crap. To be expected, sure, but the developers of the system made it for testing purposes, as in they put zero time and money into it. It was thrown together just to make sure the features all worked. The real software using the device is going to have a LOT more time and money put in, because they won't be busy developing the device. It's like blaming Chrono Team for Dragon Quest issues. Parallel jobs, here.

On shovelware, why should anyone, according to your own logic, produce it for the PS3 when the Wii is easier and cheaper to develop for? Wii still has a large market share, does it not? Have they all been evaporating? No? Well, then. Also, many GOOD games are going to see a retrofit, including Little Big Planet and RE5, to offer a new way to play.

On gimmick, sure, maybe. I'll give you that one. On the other hand, traditional controllers aren't going away, either. If you don't like the wand-waving, you can always go back to the old system. There are advantages and disadvantages to any control system, and motion controls are better suited to some games than others. It might finally open up console RTS, as shown in the demo. Maybe you'll be able to actually sword at stuff in Oblivion now and feel a satisfying rumble as you knock a guy's block off with Rockbreaker.



My point is that I still possess a little joy and wonder in the world (really!) and am willing to give this a chance. If it's good, GREAT! If it falls by the wayside, well, it still has the old control system, $30 down, not the end of the world. If you're into that sort of thing, plug it into a 2P game, world's cheapest vibrator, amirite?

[Kim]

Originally Posted by bluestarultor

NonCon, you remember when the Wii was released right along with MotionPlus? No? Good, we're still in the same reality, then.

Hey, remember when that was kind of my fucking point? No? Read again.

Put simply, they're promising full 1:1 off the bat and have shown their system has it.

No. They're promising full 1:1 and have shown their tech demo has it... maybe...

Wii promised, or at least implied, the same thing and didn't.

I welcome you all once again to the point I was making about how publishers lie to you, and so do tech demos. DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN

And really, you said yourself that the tech demo looked like crap. To be expected, sure, but the developers of the system made it for testing purposes, as in they put zero time and money into it. It was thrown together just to make sure the features all worked. The real software using the device is going to have a LOT more time and money put in, because they won't be busy developing the device.

Okay, so let me get this straight... because I don't want to get anything wrong here... but if you're saying what I think you're saying... that's a pretty terrible argument there Blues.

You're claiming that what we were shown in the tech demo wasn't what we'll actually be getting. So, what they showed during the tech demo doesn't exist... not really. What we're getting is something different that promises what was shown in the tech demo. I remind you that this is a tech demo that, despite being built around "Hey guys look at this awesome glowing dildo and all it can do!", looked like shit. Your argument in support of the product is that the tech demo showed that it can do what they promise, yet you follow that with "Well complaining about the tech demo is dumb because that isn't the real product."?

So... in short... I can't bitch about the tech demo because that product doesn't exist, but it still proves that what they're selling will work?

On shovelware, why should anyone, according to your own logic, produce it for the PS3 when the Wii is easier and cheaper to develop for? Wii still has a large market share, does it not? Have they all been evaporating? No? Well, then. Also, many GOOD games are going to see a retrofit, including Little Big Planet and RE5, to offer a new way to play.

I have an anecdote for you all. One time I said that most of the software for a product would be shovelware, because purchasers of shovelware were the prime demographic. I take this moment to remind you that although the Wii has the shovelware market cornered pretty well, meaning that most shovelware software will be for the Wii, it is not the only console with shovelware. Anyways, I also made a point to mention that there would probably be good games that took advantage of the Arc. However, I followed that with the statement that the Arc controls would most likely be inferior to the standard controls. Why? Because this is something we observed on the Wii, and since the Arc is a very similar product, it's safe to say that that will probably carry over. My anecdote concludes with Blues ignoring all these points because he has JOY and WONDER and apparently that's enough to discredit reality.

[bluestarultor]

Originally Posted by NonCon

Hey, remember when that was kind of my fucking point? No? Read again.

No. They're promising full 1:1 and have shown their tech demo has it... maybe...

I welcome you all once again to the point I was making about how publishers lie to you, and so do tech demos. DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN

Okay, so let me get this straight. You think that developers are going to do SO POORLY with this that they can fuck up both hardware and a software package they didn't make? Granted, maybe someone WILL dick around with the software that makes the system tick, but that kind of defeats the whole purpose of having it unless you know you have something to add and requires permission to add it. That would be like someone deciding they didn't like the way a conventional controller operated and messing with it. If you want to modify a control scheme there are MUCH easier ways of doing it.

Okay, so let me get this straight... because I don't want to get anything wrong here... but if you're saying what I think you're saying... that's a pretty terrible argument there Blues.

You're claiming that what we were shown in the tech demo wasn't what we'll actually be getting. So, what they showed during the tech demo doesn't exist... not really. What we're getting is something different that promises what was shown in the tech demo. I remind you that this is a tech demo that, despite being built around "Hey guys look at this awesome glowing dildo and all it can do!", looked like shit. Your argument in support of the product is that the tech demo showed that it can do what they promise, yet you follow that with "Well complaining about the tech demo is dumb because that isn't the real product."?

So... in short... I can't bitch about the tech demo because that product doesn't exist, but it still proves that what they're selling will work?

Maybe I need to clarify. What I'm saying is that the tech demo was there for the sole purpose of showing off the hardware and software behind it. It was there solely to express the basics. What they did could best be compared to making a piano and hitting every key to show that it works. It's not the music that's going to be eventually played on the piano. Same thing here. They showed off the basics of the control system and it's up to someone else to write some real content for it. You have a piano and working keys, but someone else is going to write the songs.

I have an anecdote for you all. One time I said that most of the software for a product would be shovelware, because purchasers of shovelware were the prime demographic. I take this moment to remind you that although the Wii has the shovelware market cornered pretty well, meaning that most shovelware software will be for the Wii, it is not the only console with shovelware. Anyways, I also made a point to mention that there would probably be good games that took advantage of the Arc. However, I followed that with the statement that the Arc controls would most likely be inferior to the standard controls. Why? Because this is something we observed on the Wii, and since the Arc is a very similar product, it's safe to say that that will probably carry over. My anecdote concludes with Blues ignoring all these points because he has JOY and WONDER and apparently that's enough to discredit reality.

Nonsie, buddy, if you think any system will ever be safe from shovelware, you are far more optimistic than I. I'll admit to having missed you saying there will be good games for the arc, probably because I read it as being very backhanded in a fast transition. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't even make financial sense to continuously write shovelware for anything but the Wii because nobody who owns anything else is going to BUY it. The Wii has marketed itself as a casual system, where the 360 and PS3 have catered MUCH more heavily to a hardcore audience who simply won't put up with that shit. Any attempts to flood either system with shovelware are likely to result in dismal failure because the people who are willing to pay the price tags of the systems are the people who know what's going on in the market.

Basically, shovelware is unlikely because of:
- prohibitive costs
- which are unlikely to be recouped
- because of a hardcore ownership

The developers working with the Arc are in essence going to have to be DAMN sure they make their money back, and the games they write are probably going to rely pretty heavily on the Arc's capabilities. But you know what else? They're still going to have to be playable with normal controls. Sony seems set on making the Arc an equal partner to the normal controller. And they have some pretty hefty guidelines to determine what does and doesn't get published. Companies are going to have to put EXTRA time and money into making the Arc work with their games, meaning the stakes for writing a game around it are that much higher.

With the Wii, the gimmick controls were the default. With the PS3, they're not. The Arc is in every way a risk to a developer, because if they don't utilize it well, it's a LOT of time and money down the drain. The fact of the matter is that there's absolutely nothing stopping people from not developing around it, so the people who do are more likely to either do a damn good job with it or pay the price if they don't.



I really do take offense at your indication I don't know reality. As a person who would like to enter the industry, I have to think about this kind of shit. Maybe I just have a better understanding of it or maybe it IS a matter of joy and wonder, but you can't deny I have a valid argument.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by bluestarultor

I really do take offense at your indication I don't know reality. As a person who would like to enter the industry, I have to think about this kind of shit. Maybe I just have a better understanding of it or maybe it IS a matter of joy and wonder, but you can't deny I have a valid argument.

Actually I can deny it. Lookitme denying that Blues has a valid argument, wheeeee! I am especially comfortable doing this as I seem to make a point and you seem to be looking the opposite direction telling me that something other that what I said was wrong. I can't even bother to argue with any of the points you're making because they're so very detached from what I'm saying I really don't know how to respond.

I'm being overly dickish, but every time I think I should apologize, I read that bit about JOY and WONDARRRRRRRGHFUCKMYBRAIN

It just triggers that little part of my brain that makes me want to punch all the people.

[bluestarultor]

Originally Posted by NonCon

Actually I can deny it. Lookitme denying that Blues has a valid argument, wheeeee! I am especially comfortable doing this as I seem to make a point and you seem to be looking the opposite direction telling me that something other that what I said was wrong. I can't even bother to argue with any of the points you're making because they're so very detached from what I'm saying I really don't know how to respond.

I'm being overly dickish, but every time I think I should apologize, I read that bit about JOY and WONDARRRRRRRGHFUCKMYBRAIN

It just triggers that little part of my brain that makes me want to punch all the people.

I can't help but wonder if this all stems from us speaking from entirely different perspectives. See, I'm a graduated programmer at this point and could get a job if I weren't still working on my BS. I'm thinking in technical and business terms, which doesn't seem to be meshing well with your arguments when I try to explain them.

I'm guessing you're coming from a player's perspective, and a rather rightfully jaded one.

Because I have at least an idea behind the processes that go into this kind of thing, I'm trying to explain why the system is going to be functional and why it doesn't make sense to throw money away on not using it well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're probably expressing your simple dislike for the setup of the system and predicting that people aren't going to know what to do with it at first and generally that you're not going to like it.

Mr. Apple, meet Mr. Orange.

My concern isn't that it's going to suck, and at no point did I ever comment on that. My concern is that it's a solid system technically and I'm excited to see what they do with it after they figure it out and all the shovelware companies crawl back to the Wii.

If any of my guesses to your arguments are true, you're essentially wasting your time, because, yeah, the first games out for ANY system are shit. Fact of life. I'm looking at the potential this control system provides and am not concerned with the content at this point. That will sort itself out in due time, and I actually am excited about the prospect of a new, working control system for my system of choice. If you're not, well, I'm not going to waste my time trying to change your mind about it.



EDIT: @DFM: SixAxis wasn't necessary to gameplay and thus was often treated poorly when it was used. On the other hand, the games that used it well (Flower and Folklore) used it well the same way anything is used well in games: it was made a core part of gameplay.

Speaking from the perspective that the Arc's system is MEANT to be a core part of gameplay, it'll probably fare better after the initial surge settles a bit.