Boxing

[BitVyper]

When I said "that sort of thing," I meant dirty fighting, not grappling.

[bluestarultor]

Originally Posted by BitVyper

When I said "that sort of thing," I meant dirty fighting, not grappling.

Yeah, I'm honestly not quite sure what I was thinking there...

[Premmy]

Originally Posted by Lev

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjE4bC4Clcg

Oh look, it's that clip from Never Back Down that always comes up when people want to talk shit about Capoeira!

Oh what, you don't remember that movie that really wanted to be the Karate Kid for MMA? oh, well that's probably because it sucked so hard

Originally Posted by Darth SS

BlahblahSecret Slave Dance blahblah blah Handcuffs blah blah drillsSo that video, capoeira vs some dude is a shining example of this:

Capoeira was developped by Brazilian slaves. They had to hide their training as a form of dance, and they had to be able to fight with their hands shackled. Hence the dancing, it hides what he's trying to do. That guy got beat down because he 1) Drills too much, 2) Fights only his system too much.

That's.... not true at all, At best, it's "Capoeira Cliff notes for dummies"

1: Secret Slave dance for hiding your fighting style:Capoeira originated as an amalgamation of various different African martial arts styles and philosophies . Unlike America, which prevented slaves from doing anything relating to their culture for fear of them doing things in secret, Brazil let each seperate tribe and nation keep their culture in the hope that it would create gaps between them and prevent them from cooperating to revolt. The idea being that if they kept to their old culture, they would remember the rivalries that their tribes had, and always be at each other's throat.

( America instead kept the light-skinned slaves in the house doing nice jobs to breed color-based discontent)

The slaves responded by saying "Lol, chattell slavery, you're more enemy than them" and formed the old form of capoeira, Which is, based on what we know, since people weren't researching their slaves like that back then, was less of a ritual with a full heritage and customs, and more of a fight breaking out in the yard and someone just happened to have a drum nearby and started playing it 'cause everybody had drums, or a combat sport that had drums, cause again, Drums all over the place.

Cut ahead to these slaves learning how to fight, and, when they weren't breaking out of captivity, KILLING each other in stupid fights amonst each other, wasting a good slave( who was so good because of all the capoeira training making him tough enough to cut sugarcane all day). This convinced the Brazilian government to outlaw Capoeira and similar artforms( not sure, but I think this may have been the reason behind Candomble's renaming of the Orishas after Catholic Saints)

People didn't practice Capoeira "Secretly out in the open but all crafty-like by pretending it was a dance" in these times, but instead just did it hidden in corners and backalleys. This was probably the period in which the birimbau came into play, being a more mobile instrument than an atabaque drum. The current toque used to signify "Okay, mestre says we're done playing now, come back to the mouth of the Circle" is actually the "OH FUCK! COPS! SCATTTER!" rythm.

During the post-abolition periods, Capoeira was still illegal, and practiced largely by criminals in the slums. It was still practiced secretly by said criminals. Without any REAL training methodologies, it was pretty simplistic and "dirty" keeping in with the old "Master's gonna come in and rape my wife, no rules or honor here" Malicia mindset carried over from the old slavery days.

Mestre Bimba was disgusted by the unrefined artform exhibited by these criminals, as well as being displeased with having to live like a criminal and thus created what your average layperson perceives to be Capoeira, which he called Regional, and began teaching in a school under this false name. He greatly changed the art form, to be more in line with Asian martial arts, adding in more upright movments and spectacular flips, and created a rudmentary scarf-based ranking system that would evlove into the modern chord system.

Alongside this was a resurgence in a style considered closer to the roots: Angola, which was lower to the ground, had no ranking system, was mostly about precision and deception, and came into being aongside Regional due to the efforts of Mestre Pastinha.

Bimba presented his Regional style to the president of Brazil, who just so happened to be on a fitness kick for his country, and thus Capoeira(Regional) was de-criminalized

Edit: in 1937 it was legal to practice in certain sanctioned places, but Bimba got his official recognition in 1937 but had formed his school in 1932


2: No hands cause slaves had handcuffs

1: Cuffed slaves would most likely have had ankle cuffs as well as handcuffs

2: Capoeira just wouldn't work without hands

One of the first things I was taught in Capoeira was "Never let your ass touch the ground" Head, Hands, Feet? Yes, but never your torso or body. Why? Using your hands, feet, and head, keeps your body always in your control whilst moving, being on your back or ass doesn't. About 97% of all movments in capoeira couldn't be done without using one's hands either as a point of balance, a counter-balance, a momentum generating-tool, a means of distraction, leverage for takedowns, a hand to hold a knife in Navalha games, elbows for... elbow strikes, hands for.. punches and slaps, a guard when initiating headbutts( looove headbutts) a means of trapping or re-directing strikes(not a lot of trapping, or, at the very least, "Cup the strike, move in with a take-down" two-millisecond traps) or pretty much anything

3:DrillsGood capoeira training is

1: physical fitness training
2: a bit of technique
3: TIME TO GET IN THERE AND TRY NOT TO DIE!
4: WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?
5: KEEP MOVING DUMB-ASS!
6: See, now you got kicked in the nuts, and knocked on your ass. Stand up, walk around, shake hands, now get out, don't get mad, just go sit over there and let the people who know what they're doing play

Very few "Drills". Mestre Bimba Created Nine Sequences to be done by pairs of people, but that's it, and those are sporadiclly done in general

[Darth SS]

Oh yah, it definitely was the cliff notes, courtesy of sporadic conversation. I'm not going to pretend to know a lot about it. It's not exactly something I run into a lot in Saskatchewan.

Some day I think it would be interesting to spar with someone who practices Capoeira, just because I'm curious to see how they would respond to what I do. Specifically, I want to see how they'd respond to level changes.

[Premmy]

Originally Posted by Darth SS

Oh yah, it definitely was the cliff notes, courtesy of sporadic conversation. I'm not going to pretend to know a lot about it. It's not exactly something I run into a lot in Saskatchewan.

Well, I mean, the "Handcuffs and secret dances" is just a part of the culture's mythology, like Besouro, famous magic-Capoeira-Gangster of old, soooo it's kinda like ninjutsu practitioners talking about the black outfits and shogunate-hired assassins, it's encouraged, and it's easy to rattle off in conversation, but if folks were being serious they'd tell you all that long stuff

Some day I think it would be interesting to spar with someone who practices Capoeira, just because I'm curious to see how they would respond to what I do. Specifically, I want to see how they'd respond to level changes.

I don't suppose that's anything like Jeet Kune Do's Combat ranges?

[Fifthfiend]

Originally Posted by Premonitions

Oh look, it's that clip from Never Back Down that always comes up when people want to talk shit about Capoeira!

Oh what, you don't remember that movie that really wanted to be the Karate Kid for MMA? oh, well that's probably because it sucked so hard

I say this as an admitted fan of 1. Karate Kid 2. Drumline 3. Fast and the Furious III 4. Only the Strong 5. the fucking DOA movie but goddamn Never Back Down was a shitty movie.

[Funka Genocide]

I'd just like to point out that being able to punch someone hard enough to render them unconscious is really, really hard. Like, you have to be pretty buff and get the right angle and all kinds of horse shit.

The few fights I've been in I think I've thrown like 2 punches maybe. Its a lot more effective to just get them on the ground without any means to hurt you, because getting punched in the head sucks.

But yeah, boxing is a weird sport. My uncle used to be a boxer, I think his crowning moment of awesome was being one of the under card fights during a Tyson match back in the day. People do it for the money or because they really like getting punched in the head.

People watch it mainly to see big ass dudes punching each other, but I've found myself enjoying it at times for the strategy and skill of the boxers. I've never been a big fan of the one punch fighters, Oscar De La Hoya was a great boxer who knew when to pack it in, he made his money, had some great fights and quit before his brain was pulp.

If they could invent a way to repair damaged nerves and regrow braincells I might get in to it, but yeah like I said, getting punched in the head sucks.

[Darth SS]

Originally Posted by Fifthfiend

I say this as an admitted fan of 1. Karate Kid 2. Drumline 3. Fast and the Furious III 4. Only the Strong 5. the fucking DOA movie but goddamn Never Back Down was a shitty movie.

I say this as a fan of movies.

Never Back Down was a shitty movie. Not "Postal" bad, but not "Commando" bad either.

Originally Posted by Premonitions

I don't suppose that's anything like Jeet Kune Do's Combat ranges?

Nope, nothing at all. It's just changing the vertical level you're attacking people. One of the things I like to do mostly as a product of escrima mixing with Krav's targetting strategies is I'll actually crouch or even hit my knees so I can unload shots at your bladder or at your knees, as opposed to bending over or kicking. I like using it to get under punches or kicks because it gets me out of the way and usually lets me load-up on my backhand, which is my far my strongest strike. So off high line kicks I like to hit my knees and just rip a backhand hammer fist right into the other knee. What I'm wondering is what the "classical" capoeira response would be to that.

[Premmy]

Originally Posted by Darth SS

Nope, nothing at all. It's just changing the vertical level you're attacking people. One of the things I like to do mostly as a product of escrima mixing with Krav's targetting strategies is I'll actually crouch or even hit my knees so I can unload shots at your bladder or at your knees, as opposed to bending over or kicking. I like using it to get under punches or kicks because it gets me out of the way and usually lets me load-up on my backhand, which is my far my strongest strike. So off high line kicks I like to hit my knees and just rip a backhand hammer fist right into the other knee. What I'm wondering is what the "classical" capoeira response would be to that.

Good way to think is
Regional=High, Fast, Agressive, direct
Angola=Slow,low, reactive, subversive

An Angoleiro's response would be to turn their head to the side because they're already down there with you.(or something like that, you get the point)

Like, Rodonkulously low.

Remember Abe Sapien in the Second hellboy movie? that was an Angoleiro.

And what you're talking about is actually very cool, because I was taught by an Angoleiro who, because of the group we were affiliated with, had to teach Regional as well,

So Rhoda sessions were filled with varying scenarios, one of Which was "Guy One play Regional, and You play Angola in response" and often we'd switch from Angola To Regional at random.

It was constant Up-Down back and forth.

My teacher could trap you on the ground until you just wanted to curl up in a ball because he would play a "Blocking" game that revolved around him pre-emptively stopping any movement you would make that he didn't want you to.

[Fifthfiend]

Originally Posted by Darth SS

Never Back Down was a shitty movie. Not "Postal" bad, but not "Commando" bad either.

I would have slightly more respect for Never Back Down if it had the moxie to be Uwe Boll bad instead of the halfhearted execution of garbled cliches which it was.