PAX Booth Babe Survey

[BitVyper]

Originally Posted by Donomni

A lot of gamers are still really fucking stupid.

Reading that article, I have to say something for Bayonetta: I haven't actually played it, but I've seen a pretty big chunk of it and I kind of was like "guys... damn it" at the start, but I started to realise that it's because she's offensively feminine the way over-the-top male heroes are hyper-masculine. It's interesting because action girls are always weak because of their feminine qualities and strong because of their masculine qualities, but Bayonetta is what Dante or Kratos would be if you held a girl-mirror up to them - no masculine qualities at all. I know of no other character that has actually gone that far with this concept, like right down to the awful one-liners. The difference is that people are terrified of femininity/don't have decades of movies indoctrinating them into this view of it, and the designers clearly tried to be as offensively feminine with her as humanly possible.

I'm sure this has come up elsewhere before, but I've never actually read any reviews or discussions except for a couple posts I made back when we just had her character model(which I still think looks terrible). Based on reactions I'm relatively sure Bayonetta is pretty much what quite a few girls see when they look at Kratos. Okay, maybe girls who haven't been playing action games for so long that they're already used to it, but still.

[Kim]

Bayonetta's actually a decent game. It plays well, I mean. The plot jumps off a cliff, and nobody knows how to SHUT THE GODDAMN HELL UP JESUS CHRIST, but the gameplay is solid, and it isn't just a DMC copy-paste. Also, I agree with you on the over-feminized the way male heroes are over-manly'd. Doesn't make it less horrible, but it's worth noting that the only reason we aren't as critical of its male equivalent is just because we're so used to it.

[bluestarultor]

Bayonetta is actually rock-solid play-wise. The story suffers from the fact that you actually have to unlock more of it in subsequent playthroughs, but Bayonetta as a character is actually really good. She's a rare example of a video game woman with full confidence in herself, a sense of humor, likes and dislikes, and top-caliber ability.

Plus, it's Word of God that she'd wipe the floor with Dante, no contest. Dante just kills demons. Bayonetta makes them her playthings.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by bluestarultor

Bayonetta is actually rock-solid play-wise.

It has a few issues. Camera is a bit wonky at times, for example. Boss fights are lacking. Having to find most of the weapons is something that I didn't really dig.

The story suffers from the fact that you actually have to unlock more of it in subsequent playthroughs

The story suffers from the dialogue being some of the worst I've heard in years.

Bayonetta as a character is actually really good.

Not really. She's a bitchy porn star. The poorly characterized boss monsters were more sympathetic than her. I'm not joking.

[bluestarultor]

Originally Posted by NonCon

It has a few issues. Camera is a bit wonky at times, for example. *snip*

The story suffers from the dialogue being some of the worst I've heard in years.

I'll agree to this, but

Not really. She's a bitchy porn star. The poorly characterized boss monsters were more sympathetic than her. I'm not joking.

*paste* Boss fights are lacking. Having to find most of the weapons is something that I didn't really dig.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Yes, she plays it sexy and yes, she's a strong female character, but she's not a slut in my opinion because sluts don't play with people like she does and I wouldn't call her overall bitchy because that would imply she just tears into everyone she meets and complains a whole lot. She's simply got more class than that.

Also, the boss fights looked pretty good from my end and the finding weapons just encouraged exploration in my view.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by BitVyper

she's offensively feminine [...] action girl [...] no masculine qualities at all [...] awful one-liners

I do not think you understand what feminine means.

[bluestarultor]

Originally Posted by Krylo

I do not think you understand what feminine means.

I'd say it would be more accurate to call her offensively female, because while she flaunts her sex, I agree that gender stereotypes do not work that way.

[Aerozord]

back when EGM still existed, they did an interview and the reason her power is her hair, is because "women really care about her hair" meaning its game play mechanics are intentionally based on gender stereotypes. I haven't played the game so i wont comment on it as a game, but progressive, it is not

[Kim]

Originally Posted by bluestarultor

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Yes, she plays it sexy and yes, she's a strong female character, but she's not a slut in my opinion because sluts don't play with people like she does and I wouldn't call her overall bitchy because that would imply she just tears into everyone she meets and complains a whole lot. She's simply got more class than that.

She treated everyone she encountered like complete shit. This makes her a bitch. She did everything as sexually as possible. This makes her a porn star. Making her shadow in the shape of a butterfly does not take all that and make it classy.

Also, the boss fights looked pretty good from my end

So I'm guessing you didn't actually play the game? Several boss fights were dragged out, none of them felt particularly menacing or threatening, and none of them had any real personality.

finding weapons just encouraged exploration in my view.

Encouraging exploration is good. But even if you actively explore, it's still possible to miss the majority of the weapons in the game, unless you pull up a strategy guide to find them. I was actively trying to find them. Discounting the ones the game straight up gives you, I think I got one weapon... Honestly, the DMC3 method of getting your weapons from the bosses worked much better, and in turn made the boss fights feel more rewarding.

[bluestarultor]

Originally Posted by NonCon

She treated everyone she encountered like complete shit. This makes her a bitch. She did everything as sexually as possible. This makes her a porn star. Making her shadow in the shape of a butterfly does not take all that and make it classy.

I honestly didn't see that. She played with a lot of people. She was never snide or crude. The only person I recall her being bitchy to was, uhh, oh, yeah, a giant-ass two-headed dragon that was going to otherwise leave her alone and look for who woke it up (likely Jeanne). And kill them for doing so. Also Cereza, because she hates squalling children. On the other hand, she was quite willing to defend her and save her from a hulking giant that got a pedo-crush on her.

But I guess that makes her terrible.

So I'm guessing you didn't actually play the game? Several boss fights were dragged out, none of them felt particularly menacing or threatening, and none of them had any real personality.

You'd guess wrong. Yes, they were long. It took a lot of doing to kill some of them. But it also was fair. For a guy like me not used to some of this stuff, the bosses were doable instead of being a mile-high brick wall. And looking for personality in one-off bosses? Good luck with that.

Encouraging exploration is good. But even if you actively explore, it's still possible to miss the majority of the weapons in the game, unless you pull up a strategy guide to find them. I was actively trying to find them. Discounting the ones the game straight up gives you, I think I got one weapon... Honestly, the DMC3 method of getting your weapons from the bosses worked much better, and in turn made the boss fights feel more rewarding.

I just raided everywhere and broke everything as a policy (RPGs have conditioned me to this), so I didn't miss anything. Besides, it's always all in the same level and you can go back for it. You don't actually need them all, anyway. Odette was nice enough, for example, but there were definitely other options, and you could do just fine with nothing but the Scarborough Fair.




Edit: Let's get this back on topic, though. If we want to talk Bayonetta, we can make a thread.