What In The Fuck Has Obama Done So Far?

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Originally Posted by Archbio

grthwllms,

Maybe it would be easier to react in a non-emotional, non-personal manner to your position if it didn't hinge 90% on emotion and a personal appeal?

I mean, you say the system is fucked, but it's legitimate, because... you!

No, it's fucked for me too.
The problem for me is that the way to help fix it doesn't have anything to do with letting Illegal immigrants off the hook for being illegally in the country, essentially the argument to my knowledge began because Noncon was counting deporting Illegal immigrants as a negative, whereas I don't believe that is the case.

Originally Posted by shiney

e: that said grth you've already been involved in one argument in this thread which resulted in someone banned so I am leaning a little more heavily on you to take a breather, you are entitled to your opinions but you will have to understand that you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth and making a bit of a mess in doing so. fifth you are poking a beehive, but grth, you are being a beehive.

Understood. However I question whether or not your prejudice against Bees is affecting your judgement.

[Archbio]

The problem for me is that the way to help fix it doesn't have anything to do with letting Illegal immigrants off the hook for being illegally in the country[...]

It kind of does. Going to lenghts to treat a fucked up a system as legimitate certainly lends that system some legitimacy.

Edit: Reading that sentence again I realize how redundant it sounds, but though I could change the phrasing I think the redundancy is appropriate.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Originally Posted by Archbio

It kind of does. Going to lenghts to treat a fucked up a system as legimitate certainly lends that system some legitimacy.

Admittedly I hadn't thought about the idea like that. But whether reformed or not surely the system would need some kind of restrictions on entering the country without authorization, and even if it's only for a short time, wouldn't that set a precedent?

[Loyal]

Originally Posted by Marc v1.0

This is a remarkably hilarious mental image when you're stuffed full of cold meds and half-awake.

Trust me, the cold meds and sleepiness are entirely unnecessary.

[Magic_Marker]

gth.

Mexican Drug War, Man. Mexican Drug War. The borders of Mexico have pretty much been in a wartorn state for what, 20~30 years now? People die all the time because rich criminals want to sell the USA cocaine. Imma edit in some links to show you how shitty and violent our neighbor's to the South have it but for now look up Mexican Drug War on Wikipedia.

EDIT: I mean, as a rule you shouldn't have an opinion on a subject until you've taken some lengths to educate yourself on the topic. It's the same reason I don't have a recommendation on who to elect for the Singaporian Presidency (They have presidents, right?)

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Geminex

The CIA's factsheet on mexico says that up to 45% of their population is below the poverty line, btw. So yeah, I'm thinking they're pretty fucked.

What does it say about drug cartels, government and police corruption, kidnappings for profit, and other violent crimes?

Edit: Gotdamn ninja.

[Fifthfiend]

Originally Posted by Geminex

Don't have much precise data on mexico, but I look at it this way:
Illegal immigrants' situation in the US is really, really shitty. They're in a strange country, don't speak the language, get menial jobs below minimum wage, aren't protected by law or any other kind of authority, get exploited by business owners and politicians alike. Their situation is horrible once they're here.
And yet, they keep coming.
From that the conclusion is more or less that their situation over there is even worse.

And at that point it really is less 'convenience' and more 'life or death'. The unfair treatment they're getting consists of coming here to get massively exploited. Which is pretty goddamn unfair, but, I think, not in the way you meant.

And whatever your background and intentions, saying 'fuck them' is less an expression of anger at their breaking the law, and more you insulting a poor, desperate class of people who have to leave their home cause said home is completely and utterly fucked. These are probably the last people who deserve anyone's anger, let alone 'hatred on a personal level'.
So yeah, people are gonna get pissed, and I think rightfully.

The CIA's factsheet on mexico says that up to 45% of their population is below the poverty line, btw. So yeah, I'm thinking they're pretty fucked.

Yup.

...Adding another thing I think is important to remember is that the vast majority of people wanting to immigrate to the US have literally no way to legally do so. There are hard caps on the number of people allowed to come here and most of the spaces are allotted to family reunification so if you don't have family here already your chances are basically shit.

The vast majority of people who immigrate illegally have no opportunity to do so legally as any kind of remotely practical prospect; most pretty much assuredly would gladly enter our legal immigration system, terrible bureaucratic hell that it is, if it were any kind of remotely practical option.

EDIT: It would almost be more accurate to say we don't have a system of legal immigration but rather a system of preventing legal immigration.

[Magic_Marker]

Secondly you cannot defend unjust laws by saying "The law is the law, just change it." Laws are there to be just, if they aren't they are better ignored and then changed. If this is your attitude then you must accept that the Underground Railroad was a criminal network stealing from plantation owners, which is what southern conservitives of the day regarded them as. To not accept this viewpoint would be intellectually dishonest.

Now grth, I don't think you are a racist. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that when you were taught about the Underground Railroad (which, if that isn't an independant rap label, it needs to be) in school you thoght those guys were pretty rad. In the same way you should cut these poor undocumented workers a little slack until you have been educated enough to form a proper opinion.

[Nikose Tyris]

I'm pretty sure I'd be happier if people physically capable of work yet on disability leave got deported.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Originally Posted by Magic_Marker

Secondly you cannot defend unjust laws by saying "The law is the law, just change it." Laws are there to be just, if they aren't they are better ignored and then changed. If this is your attitude then you must accept that the Underground Railroad was a criminal network stealing from plantation owners, which is what southern conservitives of the day regarded them as. To not accept this viewpoint would be intellectually dishonest.

Now grth, I don't think you are a racist. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that when you were taught about the Underground Railroad (which, if that isn't an independant rap label, it needs to be) in school you thoght those guys were pretty rad. In the same way you should cut these poor undocumented workers a little slack until you have been educated enough to form a proper opinion.

I don't believe that deporting people who immigrate illegally has a moral connection to the Underground railroad. I can see why you might, and I understand the logic behind it. But to me there's a fair distance on the morality scale between them.

I still wouldn't advocate ignoring that they've committed a crime, but with the point make by Magic_marker I think now I'd be more inclined toward offering retroactive insertion into the system (After some reforms, of course) rather than outright deportation. At least in most cases.

Originally Posted by Krylo

What does it say about drug cartels, government and police corruption, kidnappings for profit, and other violent crimes?

Edit: Gotdamn ninja.

Originally Posted by Magic_Marker

grth.

Mexican Drug War, Man.

The scale and scope of the Drug Cartel problem had indeed escaped my attempts to figure out where Mexico as a nation stood, and with it in mind I find it easier to acknowledge the association between immigration to America and refugees that Smarty made.
I'll put some thought to this before posting any further.