d20 (D&D, Pathfinder, etc.): General Discussion, Help, and Fun

[Azisien]

Originally Posted by tacticslion

It's good to hear at least one person really like them. Basically (so far) on the Paizo forums I've really only read people complaining about it being stupid... or people who like it while trying not to irritate the people who complain about it being stupid.

Not sure how people would think it stupid unless they don't like the pop culture references. They dislike firearms? But there's like a whole page asking right out: DO YOU want firearms in your campaign? Does it fit? There's a progression of different firearms technology levels (including NONE) that could occur. Divide/multiply/restrict firearms based on these levels. Complaining about optional rules never made much sense to me.

Originally Posted by tacticslion

I plan use a) the travel mechanic from Serpent's Skull, b) the city-exploration mechanic from Serpent's Skull, c) and the kingdom building mechanic from Serpent's Skull. I might even use the Trust mechanic from the upcoming Carrion Crown that I've heard about but haven't seen, yet. The idea is that the PCs become local heroes, eventually get called to a vast, important exploration, and (hopefully) end up rulers of an ancient "ruined" city that they can then expand upon to begin creating an empire. I'm looking forward to using (and abusing) the Mass Combat Rules whenever they come out. I mean, my country already can't fail its checks unless it makes a natural 1 - and that's without any rulers! So even if we all kick the bucket, my country should be able to continue to survive, which, in the River Kingdoms, is saying a great deal!

Wait, does Serpent's Skull have a second kingdom building ruleset? I thought all that was in Kingmaker?

[tacticslion]

Originally Posted by Azisien

Complaining about optional rules never made much sense to me.

Trust me, I'm right there with you. That said, I get it, once it's 'canon' (as in published) even if you don't like it, someone else might and it might 'infect' your 'pure' or 'untarnished' or 'real' game. It's still stupid, but that's, at least, some mental justification I think people go through, consciously or not.

Originally Posted by Azisien

Wait, does Serpent's Skull have a second kingdom building ruleset? I thought all that was in Kingmaker?

Yes, it's all in Kingmaker. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse!

What I'm thinking of doing is taking the exploration rules from Serpent's Skull ("long, grueling over-land travel" and "claiming ancient ruin first" rules) and then, after that, starting the kingdom building rule set, using the ancient ruin claiming rules to justify the PCs having control over an ancient city they must make functional again (effectively becoming their capital), then expanding from there into the kingdom building. The Trust mechanic (if I like it or if it fits) from Carrion Crown that I've heard a little about could come into play with either their "home base" city (if they have one/spend time there), or local, indigenous tribes (humanoid or otherwise) around the ancient ruin that will eventually become some of their first citizens. The more I'm thinking of it, the more I'm leaning toward the latter, honestly.

Anyway, that's what I meant.

[Ryong]

Okay, so, D&D 4e:

I'm making a fighter that relies on the Weapon Master series of attacks, which allow you to switch weapons at the drop of a hat ( using them, you can sheathe one weapon and draw another as a free action ) but there's an issue. I want to use a shield. The one character I've played that had a shield simply never took it off, so it wasn't an issue, but now... So, I ask, is there a way to unequip/equip a shield as a minor action or better?

[tacticslion]

Well, Ryong, no one else has responded for two days, so...

Originally Posted by Ryong

Okay, so, D&D 4e:

I'm making a fighter that relies on the Weapon Master series of attacks, which allow you to switch weapons at the drop of a hat ( using them, you can sheathe one weapon and draw another as a free action ) but there's an issue. I want to use a shield. The one character I've played that had a shield simply never took it off, so it wasn't an issue, but now... So, I ask, is there a way to unequip/equip a shield as a minor action or better?

First is the obligatory: have you checked Martial Power (1, 2, or others)? (I presume you have because I don't know the Weapon Master stuff, though it could just be my rustiness at 4E at present and lack of sleep)
Second: No, I'm afraid I don't. That said, I can see it being a fairly decent and easy-to-use feat-progression. My 4E rules are a little rusty, so I'm just throwing this out there (feel free to bring the ideas to your GM, tweak them first, or whatever)
Something like:

Heroic Feat: Raised Defense
You are always ready to defend yourself or your comrades with a strong shield arm.
You may equip any one shield you have on you as a move action; by spending an action point to do so, you may do this even if it's not your turn.

Paragon Feat: Always On Guard (requires Raise the Wall)
Your constant vigilance has paid off. It's nearly impossible to catch you without your shield ready. You may equip any one shield you have in your equipment as a swift action; by spending an action point to do so, you may do this even if it's not your turn.

Epic Feat: Walled Warrior (requires Always On Guard)
Devotion to the Way of the Wall has brought you far beyond what your younger self thought possible. You are now truly the master of shielded warriors. You may equip any one shield you have in your equipment as a free action; by spending an action point to do so, you may do this even if it's not your turn.

I just came up with those off the top of my head and, as I said, my 4E is a bit rusty at present. Check it with your GM and the general power-level of other feats of similar strength, and it might grant what you're looking for. I don't know your build - it might already be feat-heavy, in which case... sorry, I've no idea. You might want to make one of your fighter at-will powers something akin to this ability (something you can likely afford, if you're a human), or you might not. I know it's not much, but maybe this will help. I'm surprised... usually Meister'd (or someone else 'round here) be all over 4E stuff like white on me!

EDIT: also, with the ability to swap feats in 4E, what you might want to do is take the earlier feat, then, the level after you take the higher feat, swap out the old one. In fact, this specific character-build trick is referenced in Player's Handbook 2 as an official thing that really works that way. They specifically mention it as a valid tactic for the heroic, paragon, and epic tier save-bonus feats, actually encouraging players to do this (since none of those feats stack with themselves). So, yeah, that's one way of getting around a feat-heavy build, if you still want to use these basic ideas. If the feats are too powerful (comparatively) I'd suggest knocking off the ability to spend an action point to use them even if it's not your turn. If the feats aren't powerful enough (comparatively) I'd add something like a +1 bonus to AC/tier while using a shield (i.e. a +1 at heroic tier, a +2 at paragon tier, and a +3 at epic tier). Keep in mind, however, this would be a feat bonus to shield AC, which wouldn't stack with any other source, IIRC.

[Meister]

Look man, a guy's gotta sleep sometime.

These homebrew feats aren't going to work as you intended because you can't actually spend an action point when it's not your turn. And honestly, considering the benefits action points give you, using one just to equip a shield faster would be an outright waste. In addition, you can swap feats like you said, but you can't swap out one that's a prerequisite for something else you have (incidentally, 4E doesn't really do feat chains very much, most likely for exactly that reason).

Alright, now, that shield problem. Ryong, you're talking about Weapon Master's Strike, right? Because I have good news: it doesn't require you to have a hand free or not wear a shield for other reasons, so you can strap on a shield and still switch weapons all day long. Switching a one-handed weapon for a two-handed one won't work, obviously, and there doesn't seem to be a feat or item that allows you to equip/stow a shield as anything less than a standard action. But on the other hand, you'd only miss out on the additional effect for spears and polearms, which just gives you opportunity attacks against shifting enemies, and a fighter already has plenty ways to discourage enemies from shifting away.

[tacticslion]

Alternate title: "Yes, I'll use the same joke twice. In a row. Even though it wasn't funny the first time. Shut up, I'm sleepy!"

Originally Posted by Meister

Look man, a guy's gotta sleep sometime.

HAH! My life with BABY! has proven you incorrect! I've learned to throw off the tyranny of Hypnos upon mortals, and I'll never have to sleep agai-*snooooooooooooooooooooore*

Originally Posted by Meister

Your feats aren't going to work as you intended because you can't actually spend an action point when it's not your turn. And honestly, considering the benefits action points give you, using one just to equip a shield faster would be an outright waste. In addition, you can swap feats like you said, but you can't swap out one that's a prerequisite for something else you have (incidentally, 4E doesn't really do feat chains very much, most likely for exactly that reason).

Got it. That's fine - it was literally just something I was throwing together at the time, as right now I'm steeped in Pathfinder stuff, not in 4E.

That said, I'm pretty certain that the PH2 (or perhaps it was the PH3?) specifically called itself out on the fact that you could totally retrain prerequisite feats and replace them once you got the higher level one, if you wanted to go that route. Specifically, it was the saving throw defense feats they used as an example (great fortitude -> epic fortitude, lightning reflexes -> epic reflexes, iron will -> epic will).

Regardless, it's good seeing you around! I guess I've just missed wherever it is you've been posting lately Thanks for the input - I was curious as well.

[Meister]

The epic defense feats don't actually have the lower tier defense feats as a requirement, though. In fact the epic defense feats provide an untyped bonus and will therefore stack with the lower tier ones. (Which is... really good, to say the least. I didn't even know until I looked them up just now. I'm a little taken aback, honestly.)

How it works is, if you have a feat that's a requirement for something else you have, you have to retrain that before you can retrain the feat.

[Ryong]

Well, dang. I wanted to switch weapons constantly. I blame the way Vaan plays in Dissidia Duodecim ( each attack sets him to a different weapon: sword & shield, axe & shield, spear, staff, crossbow, gun, greatsword and katana ) so I was trying to be able to do broadsword & heavy shield, battleaxe & heavy shield, spear, greatsword and scythe ( as a katana replacement. Because the Katana deals a lot of hits... and the scythe does 2d4 damage. It's stupid, I know. )

There are some stupid alternatives - there's some third party "buckler" which doesn't need a hand, but you only get the shield bonus against one enemy or something. Or I go with just two-handers or just one-handers.

[Meister]

Hope you play with inherent bonuses or you'll never have enough cash to keep that arsenal relevant.

What are you looking to get out of the shield? Maybe there's another way to gain that.

[Ryong]

Was planning on using a few shield-only powers. And yeah, we play with inherent bonuses sometimes.