"Fuck Man" or "We're Talking About The Lord Of The Rings Now"

[Archbio]

Barrel,

Textbook strawman that one.

Not even close.

Suggesting that Gondor has unstoppable armaments stashed somewhere and that they're not using it because they're stupid is quite similar as all the powers you've attributed to Gandalf just to be able to say that he's stupid for not using them.

It occurs to you that it would have been convenient if Gandalf could chat up Isildur before going to Middle-earth, so he could have. Because not doing it when he could have would make him stupid.

Same thing with deciding that Gandalf should be able to reshape the landscape because you sort of remember some of the Powers being described as doing that in a different context. Because not doing it to short circuit the plot would make him stupid.

I mean, putting "atom bomb" in there just takes away the pretext that any of these notions have anything to do with the story. Maybe I should have said that the sun, who's like a spaceship with an elf in it in one of Tolkien's tales about that same world, should have started to bombard Mordor's armies with focused sunbeams.

I mean, that's all in-universe stuff; it's twisted around and interpreted to the extremes in one direction in order to fit a story-breaking notion (and any detail that might invalidated that is just not looked up,) but it's all in-universe stuff. And apparently that's all you need for that supposed interpretation to trump the actual text.

An even more direct (and boring) analogue of what you've been spinning there regarding Gondor's strenght is what you just did:

Also he's failed like the last 3 times he tried.

Like, right there you ignore a basic parameter of the setting (that I just mention in the very bit of my post you quoted mainly that everything's going to shit, the elves are fading and the peoples of the alliance that beat Sauron before are weaker than they were... and they're not even all that allied anymore.

Now I suppose that this fact from the text won't count. But the past events in the story that you use to make the point count. Because that's how Sauron looks the stupidest.

The atom bomb exaggeration is minor hyperbole compared to that stuff.

Also when Sauron comes to attack just spray some water on your city and be like "Oh no, you can't get us we're at the bottom of a river". Works every time.

Tiny gold ring. Great River. I mean, it's a shame the english language doesn't have a word for a BIG FUCKING RIVER, unlike french, because that's the kind of river this is.

orcs don't seem the most logisitcally orientated people.

The logistics of orcdom kind of enter the picture before they do any conquering (how big of a population can survive on cave mold or on volcanic ash?,) or they don't enter at all. For realsies, I don't think scientific realism was made for that kind of stuff.

Also you're still not mentioning the 500 years Gollum was ACTIVELY USING the ring right next door.

I'm pretty sure we're suppose to gather, because we're readers trying to willingly suspend our disbelief, that UNDER THE ROOTS OF THE MOUNTAINs means really deep, and that Sauron's awareness is affected by distance and the earth's crust. I mean, that the power of a magic ring would be affected by such factors isn't any more inherently ridiculous than if it wasn't.

Personally, I don't remember exactly how Sauron's awareness is described in the books, and I don't remember what The Lord of the Rings say about Gollum's use of the ring/Sauron. But I'm going to assume your interpretation is more uncharitable than what Tolkien actually came up with.

I'm pretty sure Gandalf and Saruman didn't spend hundreds of years looking for it in the library.

Well, start by putting library in the plural, then take away the filing system and the registry, and imagine that some of those libraries are just literally shelves with books stacked on them.

Then take away modern means of transport, saddle Saruman with a lot of other reading/study interests and Sauron with a need for discretion, no body to do the actual search first hand and servants who are mostly idiots and/or very conspicuous.

I don't know about hundreds of years. But "going to the library" seems like underselling the time that should be spent by far.

Certainly not going to take 1500 years though. I'm pretty sure Gandalf and Saruman didn't spend hundreds of years looking for it in the library.
During this time he had enough presence to be feared as the Necromancer and he had control of troops. That is enough to search.

Well, at the end of the first thousand years he spent in Dol Guldur he was still weak enough to have to "flee before Gandalf." Just Gandalf. To me how the first phase is described sounded more like fucking up the forest's ecosystem with beasts and giant spiders and enchantments. Relatively passive.

Which is fearsome enough. When you have to live near there.

[Azisien]

It took Gandalf about 20 years to confirm Bilbo/Frodo's ring was the One Ring, right? Seemed like weeks/months in the books but I think it was much longer in the books.

Also there's some evidence that density of matter blocks his awareness/control of the Ring, because even when he possessed the One Ring he couldn't control the Dwarves. Presumably because they were far away and deep underground laughing over how much ale and gemstone they had.

[Marc v4.0]

Originally Posted by Archbio

Barrel,



Not even close.

Suggesting that Gondor has unstoppable armaments stashed somewhere and that they're not using it because they're stupid is quite similar as all the powers you've attributed to Gandalf just to be able to say that he's stupid for not using them.

It occurs to you that it would have been convenient if Gandalf could chat up Isildur before going to Middle-earth, so he could have. Because not doing it when he could have would make him stupid.

Same thing with deciding that Gandalf should be able to reshape the landscape because you sort of remember some of the Powers being described as doing that in a different context. Because not doing it to short circuit the plot would make him stupid.

I mean, putting "atom bomb" in there just takes away the pretext that any of these notions have anything to do with the story. Maybe I should have said that the sun, who's like a spaceship with an elf in it in one of Tolkien's tales about that same world, should have started to bombard Mordor's armies with focused sunbeams.

I mean, that's all in-universe stuff; it's twisted around and interpreted to the extremes in one direction in order to fit a story-breaking notion (and any detail that might invalidated that is just not looked up,) but it's all in-universe stuff. And apparently that's all you need for that supposed interpretation to trump the actual text.

An even more direct (and boring) analogue of what you've been spinning there regarding Gondor's strenght is what you just did:



Like, right there you ignore a basic parameter of the setting (that I just mention in the very bit of my post you quoted mainly that everything's going to shit, the elves are fading and the peoples of the alliance that beat Sauron before are weaker than they were... and they're not even all that allied anymore.

Now I suppose that this fact from the text won't count. But the past events in the story that you use to make the point count. Because that's how Sauron looks the stupidest.

The atom bomb exaggeration is minor hyperbole compared to that stuff.



Tiny gold ring. Great River. I mean, it's a shame the english language doesn't have a word for a BIG FUCKING RIVER, unlike french, because that's the kind of river this is.



The logistics of orcdom kind of enter the picture before they do any conquering (how big of a population can survive on cave mold or on volcanic ash?,) or they don't enter at all. For realsies, I don't think scientific realism was made for that kind of stuff.



I'm pretty sure we're suppose to gather, because we're readers trying to willingly suspend our disbelief, that UNDER THE ROOTS OF THE MOUNTAINs means really deep, and that Sauron's awareness is affected by distance and the earth's crust. I mean, that the power of a magic ring would be affected by such factors isn't any more inherently ridiculous than if it wasn't.

Personally, I don't remember exactly how Sauron's awareness is described in the books, and I don't remember what The Lord of the Rings say about Gollum's use of the ring/Sauron. But I'm going to assume your interpretation is more uncharitable than what Tolkien actually came up with.



Well, start by putting library in the plural, then take away the filing system and the registry, and imagine that some of those libraries are just literally shelves with books stacked on them.

Then take away modern means of transport, saddle Saruman with a lot of other reading/study interests and Sauron with a need for discretion, no body to do the actual search first hand and servants who are mostly idiots and/or very conspicuous.

I don't know about hundreds of years. But "going to the library" seems like underselling the time that should be spent by far.



Well, at the end of the first thousand years he spent in Dol Guldur he was still weak enough to have to "flee before Gandalf." Just Gandalf. To me how the first phase is described sounded more like fucking up the forest's ecosystem with beasts and giant spiders and enchantments. Relatively passive.

Which is fearsome enough. When you have to live near there.

I really don't think it is worth it at this point, It is rather clear he isn't going to take any of this seriously on purpose, even though he introduced the argument in a serious manner to begin with.

[Meister]

Have you guys considered that a discussion about Lord of the Rings on nuklearforums.com might not be the kind of thing some people, as a rule, take the absolute most serious stance possible on, without any ill intent?

[CABAL49]

Originally Posted by Meister

Have you guys considered that a discussion about Lord of the Rings on nuklearforums.com might not be the kind of thing some people, as a rule, take the absolute most serious stance possible on, without any ill intent?

This is the internet, serious business is done here.

[Marc v4.0]

I would have considered that if it had been presented as a total goof and not disguised as a serious line of bad reasoning.

Then again, we should have known all things considered

Maybe we shouldn't misrepresent ourselves in order to have a good laugh at running other people through argumentative hoops until they figure out you're just trolling for the sake of it.

[Meister]

Or maybe when someone cracks a joke about how Sauron can't find the One Ring and it's like right there, in a thread on a light entertainment forum that started off with "man Isildur you had one job and you ballsed it up," going all "well actually in the source material I think you'll find" serious literary science on their ass is not entirely the appropriate reaction.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Oh shit Meister is on to me! He's probably in the Stasi!
Abort! Abort!

[Azisien]

Honestly I know the rebuttal is gonna be some kind of "Men need to prove their own strength" type thing but if there's a bullshit part of the movies (I forget how its framed in the books honestly) it's when Isildur is about to drop the Ring, goes "nope.avi" and then Elrond proceeds to LET HIM GO.

Like, what?

I'm a powerful Elf Lord, I'm going to murder you now, and throw the Ring in the fire. It shouldn't corrupt him in the five seconds he needs to touch it to do that. Justification? One human dies, but the largest evil in the world is utterly destroyed until Morgoth returns some day maybe.

What actually happened? Tens of thousands of humans died warring over the Ring, and plenty of elves too. Maybe some off-screen dwarves here and there. Way to go, Elrond.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

You forget Elrond and Isildur were butt buddies.