Let's Have a Civil Discussion about Mod Discretion

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Actually me and Liz both got temporary bans from the chat, so there's that.
I think at that point I was just all caps telling her to calm down, so it's not like I didn't deserve it.

[synkr0nized]

This post pertains to Liz's banning solely.

Snake (and maybe others), in response to a large portion of that essay, I'll point you to the following:

Originally Posted by NPF Administration

The Rules (That will get you banned forever)

A select few things will get you permanently banned, no questions asked.

• Repeated rules offenses: If you regularly receive temp bans and infractions, you can expect to be permanently banned at the next appropriate occasion. We intentionally don't give a limit as to how many infractions you can safely rack up, because pure numbers aren't the only thing that enters into the decision. It also depends a lot on whether you present yourself as a generally decent person or as someone deliberately disruptive. (Of course, generally decent persons don't tend to collect as many infractions in the first place.) This is not an invitation to see how much you can get away with while avoiding a ban.

[...]

• Ban-Dodging: If you get temporarily banned and decide to simply sign up again using a different name, both your accounts will be permanently banned. Likewise if you re-register after a permanent ban - you can return if you're bearing a new and improved disposition, but to be honest we're not holding our breath on that. Generally, when we find out someone's been permanently banned before under another name, off they go.

Furthermore, part of Krylo's job is to help you all out with whatever the staff may or may not be doing in the mod section, i.e. make sure the general userbase is being represented fairly. It's not correct for mod discussion to be out in public, nor is it correct for everyone to feel moderating decisions are "wrong" merely because we all like the person who is on the receiving end.


Fenris's behavior could be called into question, I get where folks are coming from there, but the actual decision should not. NonCon/Liz has been temp-banned so many times for passionate and downright rude behavior in various arguments over the years. While it is looking like this, again, won't be permanent, it's worth noting it wasn't "Oh man Liz argued with Fenris let's ban her forever."


One of the things we did back when we re-worked the rules and the like was try to ensure that we all do shit as a team. We recognize that there's a need to be open to discussion with everyone, but you all should recognize that it's rather ridiculous to expect to see or read everything that goes on in the "shady backroom" or whatever some of you seem to think it is. Again, the whole idea of a "PR person" is to allow for staff to do whatever it is they need to do in private while providing access, albeit limited, for the general users.

I'm not saying you all need to go rush to Krylo and bug the shit out of him. But I'm also not sure what needs to be "open" here. I suspect it's because some of you feel that a few posts in one thread and the chat were insufficient for a big banning, but I'll remind you that it was one more incident in a pile of incidents.


Also, as to your note about discretion et al:
Forums don't function like an open democracy with everything being voted on by everyone. The whole point of having a mod/admin team on any forum is to ensure that there are individuals available to handle conflicts with the community-established and generally agreed-upon rules of conduct and content efficiently and rationally. While I am certainly aware that there are many places on the Internet with admins who run things based on their own whims and feelings, banning people who offend them or who they just decide they don't like, etc., that's not the case at any sensible place. I would think you all would understand that, especially after Fifth's demotion and the associated drama, we pushed for a system that ensured we'd work together to keep each other in check and to try to be objective about situations. That was the whole point of POS and I helping push the "Moderator Code of Conduct" in addition to what the team did to reword the rules overall.

I'm honestly a little annoyed that a large portion of your post, despite you're disclaimer at the beginning to try to smooth things over, implies decisions like this are made on fleeting emotions and without any kind of general, common baseline. If you really feel you've "gotten away with it" over time here, please feel free to link me to the posts in question, as I would be willing to consider your banishment from the forum if that would ease your mind.


Really, what more transparency would you expect? Yes, the situation is an unhappy one. Yes, Liz is well-liked here. But NPF needs to stop treating every decision made on this forum, especially the ones they disagree with, as wrong merely because they don't like them. We may not like them, either! That's part of what happens when a community of similarly-minded friends, albeit mostly in a virtual setting, does anything to curtail undesired behavior.

[MuMu]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

...If that story is true (I am desperately trying to give Liz some innocent-until-proven-guilty style benefit of the doubt), I'm absolutely shocked Liz wasn't banned over that.

It did result in this thread if you're interested in the fallout.

[Solid Snake]

Synk:
The rest of your post was enlightening and your points are well taken, but:

Originally Posted by synkr0nized

I'm honestly a little annoyed that a large portion of your post, despite you're disclaimer at the beginning to try to smooth things over, implies decisions like this are made on fleeting emotions and without any kind of general, common baseline.

I think the issue here is that you're failing to differentiate between, like, a genuine effort to insult the Mod Squad and a simple observation of human nature.
Like, I'm not saying that you guys aren't making an effort to be impartial and objective. Of course you are! Any appropriate and likable administrator worthy of the praise I offered in the beginning of my post and striving to achieve the Confucian ideal in a 'Rule of Man' system is going to make genuine efforts to reach that goal.

I don't question your commitment, your work ethic, etc.
I'm saying that despite everything you're doing, it's only inevitable that under such a system and with such discretion, human beings are going to fuck up.

It's not "Fenris and Synk and POS are subpar Moderators." It's that all of us would be subpar moderators by virtue of simply being human. And in calling Liz an idiotic clod repeatedly -- as Fenris has admitted -- Fenris himself has proven that accurate.
Does that make any sense? Am I making the argument coherently?

I'm sure there is a general, common baseline of Mod discipline and behavior. I'm sure you all strive to do your best. That doesn't change the fact that fallible people, when given discretion and a fairly broad range of permissive behaviors and approaches within said discretion, are going to abuse it. Saying you'd abuse that discretion is not akin to saying that you're bad people. Even the best among us would abuse that discretion simply by virtue of being human and balancing one's obligations as a Moderator with everyday stresses.

I mean to be blunt? I don't really know how I could have been any more reasonable, evenhanded and downright complimentary with that post. I tried my damnedest to bend over backwards because I really do like you all and I want you to know that I appreciate what you've done for this community. My appreciation for your efforts, however, should not immunize you from criticism.

...If I've failed in conveying that, well, I botched it, but I didn't mean to.

And in this case, the criticism was beneficial in the sense that it led me to hear Fenris' side of the story, which I had not heard, and it allowed me to clarify some ambiguities and come to a more reasonable assessment of what actually happened. Given that Liz and Fenris are both friends of mine, it was important to me to do that.

...Also, I love that my effort to be brutally honest in the interests of full disclosure (and because, to be frank, it seemed somewhat unfair for me to criticize others without ever flashing that magnifying glass on myself) resulted in an implicit ban-threat.

[Sifright]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

*snip*

And in this case, the criticism was beneficial in the sense that it led me to hear Fenris' side of the story, which I had not heard, and it allowed me to clarify some ambiguities and come to a more reasonable assessment of what actually happened. Given that Liz and Fenris are both friends of mine, it was important to me to do that.
*snip*

Or like you could have just pmed fenris and asked him for his side.

edit: sorry that was silly of me I know you have to write up those dissertations. It's okay i understand.

:P

[Krylo]

Firstly: Chat bans and forum bans are handled separately for various reasons.

Secondly: I have a headache, just went through the log, and weighed in in the SECRET CABAL. This is too many words for me right now.

I will read this and get a post in later assuming it's still necessary, as of now it looks like Synk has handled things pretty well.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

It's not "Fenris and Synk and POS are subpar Moderators."

Hey now, don't lump me in with these turkeys. I haven't made a bad moderating decision in nearly a year and a half.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Sifright

edit: sorry that was silly of me I know you have to write up those dissertations. It's okay i understand.

:P

It's all I'm ever good at, Sifright
IT'S ALL I CAN EVER DO

I was cursed with Snakepostitis at a young age, I tell you
CURSED WITH THE ANCIENT DISEASE

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by POS Industries

Hey now, don't lump me in with these turkeys. I haven't made a bad moderating decision in nearly a year and a half.

Also, to be fair, I don't think synk has ever made one.

Just me!

[Solid Snake]

Jeez I literally just tossed your three names in there because you were the first three Mod names that popped into my head
There was nothing intentional about it :P