Echo-o-o-o

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by POS Industries

Does anyone respect 8-bit as a work of art? Or are we all using it to further our own ego-centric, pompous forum-gameresque ids?

I respect 8-Bit. In fact, I respect it more than the author himself, as to me, the work is more paramount than the individual that creates it. But respect doesn't mean that you have to like it unfailingly, all the time or that you it's wrong criticize. Actually, to simply, sit back and withhold judgment until the work is done is a disrespect of the medium, the fundamental difference between webcomics and their print predecessors -- immediate user feedback. The writers and the readers create the organic experience of 8-bit. To censor, mock, and disrespect the readers is no worse than to disrespect the author.

Originally Posted by POS Industries

I mean...there are vast amounts of people on this forum that sit and make predictions update after update after update after update and critique the HELL out of Brian, call him names and such. Are we forgetting that he is the CREATOR of this storyline? This is HIS story, HIS almost decade long labor! There is nothing for you to do but READ IT. Critique when it's DONE. Just because you are vested in the storyline doesn't mean that you own part of it.

8-Bit is as much an experience of the readers as much as the writers. If a webcomic doesn't have any readers, then it similar to a language without any speakers -- it doesn't exist (And yes, I know there are exceptions, but they are just that. Exceptions).

Originally Posted by POS Industries

Just because you are a big fan doesn't mean that you now get to superimpose your will onto the writing. This is not a group effort. I feel like in the past month, a large group of superegos have risen up to try to be able to say "OMGZ, I WAZ IN UR COMIC, PREDICTIN UR CHARACTER DEVELOPMENTZ" (yes, thats a reference). I personally very strongly feel that all these critics are really starting to affect the storyline, as someone is BOUND to "predict" whats going to happen based on PURE LUCK. Then Brian has to say to himself "well...that's spoiled now...what can I do to fix this?". Its the biggest problem with making a work public before its done. I mean, think about what would have happened if Shakespeare had made Macbeth pubic throughout its writing? There would be no incest, and no murder spree at the end. And then it wouldn't be my favorite Shakespearian play.

You're comparing rocks to apples here. A webcomic is a fundamentally different narrative than a play, and episodic narratives of any sort (soap operas, comic books, etc) are judged in progress all the time. Furthermore, how is expressing an opinion super-imposing one's will? It's not like we're directly editing the comic itself.

Originally Posted by POS Industries

Then we have "filler" (maybe its not a filler, maybe it would've been like that ANYWAY and it only LOOKS like filler because there are a bunch of people who can't shut UP, and they are indirectly AFFECTING THE STORYLINE) comics like this last one and everyone is upset. I'm almost sure that update would not have been unsatisfactory to nearly as many people if everyone would just "shut the goddamn hell UP" and let Brian write it. Just let the man write the story, please! Let the artist/writer develop the characters without being harried by an endless parade of armchair webcomic wannabes. You want a better plot? Chrono Trigger doesn't have a comic yet, why don't some of you get together and go take one of the greatest games of all time and make something substantial about it. Brian already has. Please stop ruining it

Why are you encouraging people to start Chrono Trigger comics? That game has a whole slew of comics out there. Also, instead of telling someone else to stop discussing 8-Bit in the way he or she chooses to do so, why not throw your support to another comic or fandom instead if you feel they are more pure? Discussion requires some sort of dissent or difference in order for it to be a good discussion, but if you want to silence people, it's your attitude that's ruining the experience by attacking and belittling those who disagree.

I do want to address a few other sentences, though...

Originally Posted by Meister

With that comes the danger that the society, or the talk about the thing, becomes more important to itself than the actual thing. Are people coming here to talk about 8BT or to hear themselves talk about 8BT?

In my opinion, there is no difference, other than 8-Bit merely being the protocol through which all communcations are made.

Originally Posted by Kurosen

It's less stress and more tired of entitled whiners whining, especially when it's whining about things they know so little about that the basis of their whining is the opposite of reality: i.e. "Brian is a sellout who doesn't care about 8-bit" which is hilarious considering the many thousands of dollars I'm giving up to continue the comic to its natural conclusion.

But what about the tens of thousands of dollars (if not more) you make? Wouldn't calling fans "entitled whiners," you know the ones that gave you the audience which which you could launch your other works, give the impression of selling out at least?

It also doesn't help your position when your commentaries on webcomics in general and your argument how sprite comics are art (discussed in this thread, among others) are gone from the Web site as well as many of the previous features, such as how you make your comics, other NP.com contributors work, and such. Yes, much of this is due to the restructuring of the old NP.com to a Wordpress based template. But all of these things are seemingly missing and replaced with more links to your other works, and a "smart-alec" answer in the FAQ (I don't disagree with the idea that making a sprite comic for a sprite comic sake is a bad idea, but the answer is more dismissive than the words you've written in the past). Before you seemed to encourage people to follow in your footsteps. Now it seems as though the site is all about you and not 8-Bit Theater. If that's true, then that's not just disrespecting the readers; that's disrespecting your very own work.

[Loyal]

But what about the tens of thousands of dollars (if not more) you make? Wouldn't calling fans "entitled whiners," you know the ones that gave you the audience which which you could launch your other works, give the impression of selling out at least?

Fuck I thought that spiel sounded familiar.

[Marc v4.0]

what is this i don't even

[RobinStarwing]

Can't we just get back to being nice to each other?

[Satan's Onion]

I mean, think about what would have happened if Shakespeare had made Macbeth pubic throughout its writing?

What, indeed.

[RobinStarwing]

Originally Posted by Satan's Onion

What, indeed.

I think I missed a joke here. Care to enlighten me?

[MSperoni]

POS is just a really big fan of 8-bit is all. He sleeps, eats, breathes, shits, cooks, fondles, dances, fights, plays, etc etc etc 8-bit all the time 24/7 flyfe.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by RobinStarwing

Can't we just get back to being nice to each other?

I agree with you to a point on this, albeit the consistency of updates has suffered from the attention paid to other work.

Originally Posted by waw

As to disrespecting the medium by holding back or not...

You're missing the point. The issue isn't discussion, it is the annoying discussion of disrespectful miscreants who are loud and obnoxious (I TOTALLY called that! I'm calling it right now! blah blah blah Brian sux for kiling my fav character/reviving my least fav character, brian is a jackas....) All that sort of dribble when it isn't in jest of the jackasses who mean it. It deteriorates from stimulating conversation that is worth something more than a jizz in the eye.

Believe me, I can sympathize the frustration of having to deal with spammy one sentence posts. As much as I disagree with the whole blanket solution (as after all, anything we write can be considered annoying to someone), I can understand the desire for higher-level discussion and less reactionary posting.

The problem isn't that this attitude is limited to what you've described. It's directed at anyone who disagrees or disapproves, not by just some of the posters, but by Brian himself, as well as several forum and site staff.

Originally Posted by Kurosen

I didn't refer to the fans as "entitled whiners." I referred to you as one.

The logical conclusion from these words is that I'm not a fan, despite the fact that I've been reading this comic since 2002, telling people about it shortly afterward, and enjoyed this work well before I started to post on this forum. He's telling me that I am not a fan and telling others by proxy how to like his (without dissent a.k.a. whining)

That is the attitude which does rile me. Why should a creator or another poster tell me precisely how to enjoy a work the author created as long as I'm not infringing on the author's rights?

More on that later, though, let me get back to what you wrote.

Originally Posted by waw

I can't comment on the Chrono Trigger stuff. As for him/her not going to support other comics.. you don't know that this poster isn't out there with other comics. It is possible to be on more than one forum.

Point conceded. I admit I was wrong about this and you're right. It is possible to split one's focus, but it's not always possible to do so effectively.

Originally Posted by waw

Webcomics are far more versatile than comic books because of the reader interaction. However! This doesn't mean that they NEED that interaction to strive. If you read Detective Comics _1012 online, it'sthe same as reading 8-bit. You can talk about it, but that doesn't mean it NEEDS feedback during the process. The feedback often encourages the writer and urges them to finish/continue the project. In rare cases, give ideas. Just because it is a different medium, doesn't mean same principles exist. I'm not saying you're wrong... i'm saying you can't discard what you are discarding.

Just as Brian now believes most sprite comics aren't "real" comics, I believe a "real" webcomic is defined by its interaction with the readers. I'll just say we'll agree to disagree on this, though.

Originally Posted by waw

For Meister's comment... YES, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. Is this a forum to discuss Brian's work, or a forum for fans of Brian's work to gather? The focus is tantamount to the entire dilemma. Frankly, I think the major reason for this forum to exist is to discuss Brian's work, whatever that entails. Feedback, critique, applause, etc. Does that entail the emotional outburst from an outraged fan? Well.. Brian plays jokes on the audience... if at least one fan doesn't get angry, he prolly isn't doing it right.

For the purpose of discussion, I think of 8-Bit Theater as an alphabet and a set of grammatical rules. Those are the building blocks of language.

I think of any discussion and thoughts that arises from the actual as an extension of 8-Bit. The comic itself may be the glue and backbone, but the attention we give it makes as much if not more so part of the greater idea of the comic as the comic itself.

Originally Posted by waw

You are saying that because 8-bit draws in fans, Brian can use these fans and forum as advertisement for his new works, thus making tens of thousands of dollars. And this makes him a sell out.

I don't agree.

Here's why...

Yes, the first part of that is true. How any npfers have taken to his other work based on liking 8bit? Although it's all different, the idea is the same... Brian wrote something, we like his work here, we'll probably like it there. However, the error in your work is the sell out part.

Oh, I'm certainly guilty of diverting my attention to some of Brian's other projects as well. I'm as much as sucker as anyone else. I try to correct myself, though.

Originally Posted by waw

If anything, it makes 8bit itself the sell out for whoring itself to his other works so that it can survive on the internet for free. Brian only sold out to himself... and I don't think that is possible.

I'm sorry, but I don't quite follow what you mean by this. Would it be possible for you to explain? Because anything that is given away for free can't be sold out. It's only when fans put money down that the accusation has any merit.

Originally Posted by waw

Did Brian encourage webcomics and folks to follow in his footsteps?
I think he encouraged people ot make Web Comic Art... not webcomics. Difference is the quality, you have shit people vomit into pixels and you have art like he's made. Over time, I wouldn't doubt BC has been jaded dealing with multi-assholedjackasses who think they do a great job simply because they use a joke found in 8-bit. The Jaded feelings, financial crunch, and increasing number of morons on this forum (which i have crossed over into that category from time to time, I admit), probably makes him seem a lot pricklier now than he 'used' to be. Stress and life does that to someone.

I disagree strongly with this. Anything that is creative is art. It may be good art or bad art. As soon as we start saying something isn't art, then it becomes all the easier to regulate speech and thought. That doesn't mean that a society can't place limits if said art is destructive to life, limb, and livelihood. But quality control should not determine what should be art.

And if Brian doesn't want criticism, then he shouldn't have published 8-Bit in the first place. One of the very first things that any artist of any kind should learn is to accept criticism and rejection, because there's going to be a lot of it. The world itself is going to make personal judgments and marginalize artists. Why should artists themselves further that cycle for the sake of a dollar, in essence selling out?

Originally Posted by waw

I argue that he is respecting his work to a greater degree by not kowtowing to dickheads and encouraging idiots to succeed him. I greatly want to do a 16-bit Theater based on FFIV, or even FFII. However, one of two things would happen. I'd replicate his comedic style, much to everyone's joy and laughter and it'd be a crapass clone that wouldn't survive, or i'd do something entirely new and these fans wouldn't carry over and it'd probably die. As much as I want to do that, BC discourages that because it's bullshit he would be wanted to deal with. I'd say "BC, how'd you do this, or this or this, or blah blah blha" or tag it iwth "inspired by BC" who's assocation with my mastashitpiece would dull his name down. My point being, it's best to discourage webcomics because they'd typically suck. Those who have the honest will and drive to do it and put up with what he has... well, they'd do it anyways.

So you won't create...in order to protect 8-Bit? Not only does 8-Bit not need protecting, but why should anyone try to shut people down? People already have their own prejudices which silence people and shove them off into the corner. The freedom of the Internet allows people at least a chance of evading censorship. Why ruin that important freedom for the sake of one person's ego?

Originally Posted by waw

Lastly: Is this site about 8-Bit or NPF, or Brian Clevinger?

Let's be frank. It's not 8-Bit Forum. It has a section for 8-bit. A SECTION. His website is Nuklear Power, not 8-bit Theater Awesome Siteof How Kick Ass would that be?

It might not be that any more, but the site used to focus more on 8-Bit Theater. It does not now.

Originally Posted by waw

So is it about the community or Brian Clevinger?

This community wouldn't exist without BC's work. We'd all meet up else where and I wouldn't talk to any of these people here. Same for many of these guys. BC is the anchor of this community. Some communities are tied together for football, software, linux, porn, porn, pron, pr0n, leet speek, wow, runescape, anime... pron, etc.

The community cannot exist unless there are people, period. Just as votes don't appear magically, so is the same with a community. We may all support a candidate for office or American Idol or whatever, but come election time, that candidate is nothing without our votes or attention. as you mentioned, people come together for lots of things. So it's not as though the idea of a community began and ended with Brian.

Originally Posted by waw

This place has nothing to do with you or me or any of us other than BC.

Wrong. Despite the changes over the years, this sub-forum is about 8-Bit Theater and everything that is an extension thereof. When I first came to this site, I didn't even know or care about who wrote the comic. It was only after loving the comic that I grew to get to know people, for better or for worse, on this board.

Originally Posted by waw

It's a shrine dedicated to Brian Kurosen Clevinger's Jackassery, ya dig?

No, I don't "dig." I worship no man, no author, no person. The work and the discussion of the work with others means more to me than Brian ever will.

Now, onto the next one...

Originally Posted by Kurosen

I live below the poverty line to keep this comic going and pass on work that would pay significantly more. What in the fuck are you talking about?

See what waw wrote in response to me.

Originally Posted by waw

You are saying that because 8-bit draws in fans, Brian can use these fans and forum as advertisement for his new works, thus making tens of thousands of dollars.

That is precisely what I am getting at. You may pass on work that pays more, but you are using your fans as a built-in audience to pay for other work. Your personal finances are irrelevant to this discussion. If you earn even one penny, that's more than anything else the vast majority of your fans have earned from their labors of love.

Originally Posted by Kurosen

I would love to know where this sell out check is so I could live like a normal person.

Let's see you have a car, pets, income, significant other, and a place to stay. That's pretty normal to me. Heck, I can't even afford a car or pets, but that's beside the point.

Originally Posted by Kurosen

Also, I didn't refer to the fans as "entitled whiners." I referred to you as one. There is a difference.

Again, I'm not a fan, but someone to be insulted. That's some appreciation shown to someone who supported 8-Bit and other endeavors.

Originally Posted by Kurosen

I know this makes no sense to you, but most of my readers enjoy my work and want to read or at least know about what else I'm doing. It would be idiotic and a little rude of me to hide this information from them.

There's a difference between disclosing a side project and making it one of the focal points of your Web site.

Originally Posted by Kurosen

Further, I love the mental gymnastics you have to go through to turn "an artist does what he wants at the expense of his own financial stability" to "sell out." That is some amazing shit right there.

There's no gymnastics. It all follows from my central premise. The artist is nothing. The art itself is an important focal point, but not the end result. The community and readers are what imbues the art with any value.

Originally Posted by Kurosen

How is any of that relevant to anything?

You're the one who first mentioned "sell out" and defensively implied that you weren't one. I was using that as evidence to show why people might think you were one.

Originally Posted by Kurosen

I know this makes no sense to you, but: Most of my readers enjoy my work and want to read or at least know about what else I'm doing. Nuklearpower.com is called nuklearpower.com and not 8bittheater.com because it was always about whatever I was doing. It was always intended to have multiple comics, I just stuck with one for so long due to poor planning.

Yet you turned that poor planning to your advantage. You didn't quit 8-Bit, you kept going and played along with the role. Good for you. Then you decided to use your following to your advantage to prop up you other works. That's where any "sell out" cries come from.

Originally Posted by Kurosen

No, making one is a bad idea because there's too many stigmas attached to them. You don't want to be like me and have a product that you can't sell due to weird copyright gray areas.

What's wrong with art you can't sell? Doesn't that make it priceless? Or was 8-Bit about the money all the time?

Originally Posted by Kurosen

Children, yes. Sprite comics make for good practice to start a real comic. The problem is that after all these years I've never seen anyone who got the progression from sprites = practice to real/original art = real comic. So, now I'm just flat out saying that it's a bad idea to do sprite comics.

Wow...so sprite comics aren't real comics...

The man who helped launch a genre which represented a break from the restrictions of copyright and pushed the envelope of appropriated material now practically stated the the format is invalid.

I didn't say it before outright, but I will say it now. That, more than anything else you've written or done makes you a sell out. To disrespect an entire art form that you personally profited from is revolting.

Originally Posted by Kurosen

Right, because I have so little to do with these 8-bit pages. They appear fully formed. I'll say it again because I know it still doesn't make sense to you: most of my readers enjoy my work and want to read or at least know about what else I'm doing.

And I thank god every day you aren't one of those people.

I'm not even going to comment on the rest of this self-centered talk. Since sprite comics aren't real comics, and fans who complain aren't real fans, I guess the real dollars that I would have been spending on you now are just fake dollars sitting in my pocket.

Maybe I will be able to afford a car after all.

[RobinStarwing]

Originally Posted by MSperoni

POS is just a really big fan of 8-bit is all. He sleeps, eats, breathes, shits, cooks, fondles, dances, fights, plays, etc etc etc 8-bit all the time 24/7 flyfe.

Gee, I couldn't tell.

It's like reading my thoughts and treatises on the Sailor Moon anime and manga. O_O

[PyrosNine]

I almost remember half of that.