Bye - Page 5

Gregness · 03-11-2015, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kim

*snip*

Fuck you. I hate causing drama anymore but fuck you.

*snip*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kim

*snip*

So, yeah. Bye.

If you're going, go, but I don't believe it. Just from my (admittedly imperfect) recollection, you've quit these forums three? Four times? Precedent isn't on your side here.

Quote:

That's cool, but keeping me should be less of a concern than keeping the people who are leaving because they no longer feel safe here. And as long as you're willing to let people like RMB slide, that's who you're going to lose.

As far as I'm concerned the whole notion of 'safe spaces' is kind of ridiculous as applied to public forums on the internet. Seriously: When the hell was this place supposed to be safe? I joined waaay back when Fifthfiend was still around and the general irreverent atmosphere was one of the chief draws.

Quote:

*snip*
If I were a black person and someone came into a thread saying they don't trust black people, I wouldn't be able to just let it slide or calm down.

Was anyone suggesting 'let it slide'? I don't think any reasonable person would suggest just letting it go, but while turning the whole thing into a shit-slinging contest doesn't put you in the wrong necessarily, it does put you in the asshole. Don't climb inside the asshole, Shiney.

Bard The 5th LW · 03-11-2015, 05:43 PM

Quote:

As far as I'm concerned the whole notion of 'safe spaces' is kind of ridiculous as applied to public forums on the internet. Seriously: When the hell was this place supposed to be safe? I joined waaay back when Fifthfiend was still around and the general irreverent atmosphere was one of the chief draws.

I believe most people in this thread are more taken aback by actual bigotry than they are mere irreverence.

Gregness · 03-11-2015, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bard The 5th LW

I believe most people in this thread are more taken aback by actual bigotry than they are mere irreverence.

Fine, be taken aback. Be appalled, baffled, confused, or whatever but even actual bigotry is just wind (electrons, whatever) here when you get down to it. I honestly don't understand how safety is a concern. Is anyone getting threatening PM's that I don't know about?

Honestly, what part of 'oh, there's some asshole, assholing it up' on a message board creates any kind of danger. Call it out, ridicule it, discuss it, engage with it in an earnest attempt to enlighten, but whatever you do if you're living with actual fear because of it that is... very strange to me.

Amake · 03-11-2015, 06:21 PM

There are people who are so poorly protected by our society that they have to be afraid of things you don't. They have to live with a level of fear and paranoia that would be considered unhealthy, in order to increase their chances of surviving. Doesn't seem very strange to me, once you begin to think about how different people are forced into living situations different from yours.

Nique · 03-11-2015, 06:29 PM

So, Greg, is it possible that you are misunderstanding the usage of the phrase 'safe space' and the idea of feeling "safe" from discrimination in a social environment?

Gregness · 03-11-2015, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amake

There are people who are so poorly protected by our society that they have to be afraid of things you don't. They have to live with a level of fear and paranoia that would be considered unhealthy, in order to increase their chances of surviving. Doesn't seem very strange to me, once you begin to think about how different people are forced into living situations different from yours.

Sure? I'm not suggesting gay black men go party crashing at KKK meetings, here. This is about a forum. On the internet. What is there to be afraid of?

How to...

Oh, maybe this will work: So, they have to "live with a level of fear and paranoia that would be considered unhealthy" and that's shitty but my problem is when we go from "I understand why you're paranoid" to "It's okay for you to keep being paranoid".

I'm kind of struggling to put this into words a bit, but basically this is a public space, and I think that fundamentally, it's a mistake to try and make it a 'safe space' in the manner that, say, a therapist's office or the arms of a loved one might be. That doesn't mean we need to be hostile, dismissive, abusive or whatever (and, indeed, as decent people we shouldn't), but it's not the group's responsibility to shepherd one's every insecurity.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nique

So, Greg, is it possible that you are misunderstanding the usage of the phrase 'safe space' and the idea of feeling "safe" from discrimination in a social environment?

I'm certainly open to the possibility.

Bard The 5th LW · 03-11-2015, 07:04 PM

Greg, no one's treating it like its fucking krystallnacht 2.0, they're just pissed off about it and expressing it, I think you are deliberately misconstruing the attitudes, language, and reactions of those involved.

Nique · 03-11-2015, 07:15 PM

Well, you seemed to be interpreting it as a physically safe space, but then your next post seems like you get it?

Look, I personally am not nessecerily saying "permaban" someone over a single (or even multiple) problematic statments or behavior in effort to create an inclusive space. But I would suggest that the mods refrain from chastising users who give, what the community seems to accept as reasonable, if heated, responses to those statements.

I realize that I'm speaking from the user side and I don't really know all the discussion that happens behind the curtain, so I'm not implying that I would do any better as a mod - I just think we all need to consider when it actually might be kind of ok to be mean to someone. Like, in real life, the shit RMB pulls gets you a punch in the face and I don't think the mods need to be concerned about protecting users from the reasonable consequences of their behavior.

Edit: Like, I'm kind of attached to this idea. Can we implement a discretionary 'if you act shifty we aren't going to protect you from getting a punch in the face' rule?

shiney · 03-11-2015, 07:19 PM

Safe space I think lends more toward triggers than any expectation of not being physically assaulted because of viewpoints on the internet. This forum is full of triggers for GLBT minorities women and a number of other historically marginalized demographics. We enable people who pull those triggers by treating their viewpoints as valid. We treat the opposing viewpoints of "trans people need more acceptance" and "trans people make me feel icky inside" as if they are equally as valid as "the sky is blue" and "the sky has donuts in it". One viewpoint is demonstrably wrong -- it may be that person's inner feeling, but it is inhumane because those people are every bit as human and entitled to feeling loved and accepted as anyone else.

This situation arose because of someone deciding that it was their right to be directly racist by proclaiming as valid as anything their right to feel xenophobic about blacks in pairs and groups. As a community, that is not okay. There have been a few people posting in this thread to just calm down or just ignore them -- that is not what you do with irrational fear and hatred. This particular person has been given probably ten or fifteen chances to recant those feelings over the ten or fifteen times this situation occurred with that single person. They decided instead to justify their so-called xenophobia by trying to split hairs vis-a-vis "I didn't direct it at anyone".

If any person in public were to say "I don't like black people" they would not be ignored. Blacks wouldn't be told to calm down. Why should this forum be held to a different standard? The term "safe place" relates to somewhere a person can reasonably expect to spend time without being subjected to irrational discrimination. That is this place and that is not in any way shape or form an irrational expectation.

If the choice is have ten people who don't discriminate or have fifty people five of whom are prejudiced assholes, I'll choose the ten. Those would be the people I want to build lasting relationships with. Those are the people I would want to have my back. Those are the people who would be important to me. Drumming an avowed racist or misogynist or sexist is not just a byproduct of this, it is a duty. We all have a duty to one another to understand our differences and be tolerant of them -- not erect arguments that justify the existence of barriers. We should not be expected to give someone ten to fifteen chances only for them to become more bold with each instance.

RMB went all-in that the community would accept his argument of "accept me for who I am - someone who discriminates." This is not the kind of tolerance we want, because we don't tolerate discrimination.

I hope this elaborates a little better what the term 'safe place' means and what the expectations of a community of varied people are. We come from all walks of life and should be encouraged and dedicated to either changing the minds of people who are willing to accept more people into their hearts, and getting rid of people who steadfastly refuse.

The choice is up to each single member which path they will walk. Two nights ago I finally made up my mind to throw myself on my sword if that's what it takes to get rid of hate. I would do it again. I would accept a permanent ban if that were my punishment. I would be honored to be banned as a result of standing up for people I care about.

Nique · 03-11-2015, 07:19 PM

Also, I just gotta say; After years of seeing Shiney try to manage this shit, to see him just straight up tell someone to fuck off was a sexual thrill.

03-11-2015, 06:21 PM	#44
Amake Keeper of the new Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: A place without judgment Posts: 4,506	There are people who are so poorly protected by our society that they have to be afraid of things you don't. They have to live with a level of fear and paranoia that would be considered unhealthy, in order to increase their chances of surviving. Doesn't seem very strange to me, once you begin to think about how different people are forced into living situations different from yours. __________________ Hope insistent, trust implicit, love inherent, life immersed

03-11-2015, 07:19 PM	#49
shiney Derrrrrrrrrrrrrp. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The land of fartz and buttz Posts: 8,266	Safe space I think lends more toward triggers than any expectation of not being physically assaulted because of viewpoints on the internet. This forum is full of triggers for GLBT minorities women and a number of other historically marginalized demographics. We enable people who pull those triggers by treating their viewpoints as valid. We treat the opposing viewpoints of "trans people need more acceptance" and "trans people make me feel icky inside" as if they are equally as valid as "the sky is blue" and "the sky has donuts in it". One viewpoint is demonstrably wrong -- it may be that person's inner feeling, but it is inhumane because those people are every bit as human and entitled to feeling loved and accepted as anyone else. This situation arose because of someone deciding that it was their right to be directly racist by proclaiming as valid as anything their right to feel xenophobic about blacks in pairs and groups. As a community, that is not okay. There have been a few people posting in this thread to just calm down or just ignore them -- that is not what you do with irrational fear and hatred. This particular person has been given probably ten or fifteen chances to recant those feelings over the ten or fifteen times this situation occurred with that single person. They decided instead to justify their so-called xenophobia by trying to split hairs vis-a-vis "I didn't direct it at anyone". If any person in public were to say "I don't like black people" they would not be ignored. Blacks wouldn't be told to calm down. Why should this forum be held to a different standard? The term "safe place" relates to somewhere a person can reasonably expect to spend time without being subjected to irrational discrimination. That is this place and that is not in any way shape or form an irrational expectation. If the choice is have ten people who don't discriminate or have fifty people five of whom are prejudiced assholes, I'll choose the ten. Those would be the people I want to build lasting relationships with. Those are the people I would want to have my back. Those are the people who would be important to me. Drumming an avowed racist or misogynist or sexist is not just a byproduct of this, it is a duty. We all have a duty to one another to understand our differences and be tolerant of them -- not erect arguments that justify the existence of barriers. We should not be expected to give someone ten to fifteen chances only for them to become more bold with each instance. RMB went all-in that the community would accept his argument of "accept me for who I am - someone who discriminates." This is not the kind of tolerance we want, because we don't tolerate discrimination. I hope this elaborates a little better what the term 'safe place' means and what the expectations of a community of varied people are. We come from all walks of life and should be encouraged and dedicated to either changing the minds of people who are willing to accept more people into their hearts, and getting rid of people who steadfastly refuse. The choice is up to each single member which path they will walk. Two nights ago I finally made up my mind to throw myself on my sword if that's what it takes to get rid of hate. I would do it again. I would accept a permanent ban if that were my punishment. I would be honored to be banned as a result of standing up for people I care about. __________________ boop

03-11-2015, 07:04 PM	#47
Bard The 5th LW Feelin' Super! Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 4,191	Greg, no one's treating it like its fucking krystallnacht 2.0, they're just pissed off about it and expressing it, I think you are deliberately misconstruing the attitudes, language, and reactions of those involved.