Tabletop Help Request - 'Powers/ Kinetics' system

[Nique]

I'll try to narrow the focus in this thread. I've posted about my tabletop project before, and the feedback I've received has always been helpful.

This is one of the last major roadblocks I am having to making a truly 'complete' game. I have a basic concept for how I would like Magic, or in my game, Kinetics, to work, but am having difficulty implementing the detailed pieces.

The goal is to achieve a system in which powers are highly customizable, with several categories the PC chooses options within to create a wholly unique ability, which will allow for PCs to build nearly any power they can imagine.

Here is the basic framework:

Method + Effect + Condition + Power + Range + AOE + Duration = ability

Methods are one of six ways the ability can be delivered; By enhancing a preexisting effect or substance, by transforming something into a substance, by generating a substance from nothing, reducing the effect of a substance, physically manipulating (moving) a substance, or emitting a beam with the property of the substance/effect. (I have a concept for a 7th 'Method' I am currently calling 'Imbued', which would refer to inanimate objects that have been enhanced with Kinetic powers).

Effects are any number of effects, substances, or properties that PCs can manipulate in the manner listed above. This would be simple things like Fire, Ice, Water, or more complicated effects like Gravity and 'timeslow'.

Conditions represents the condition to me met in order for the ability to manifest. This would be things like 'on touch' if a PC wanted to create a trap of some sort, or the ablity might only become active when a 'magic word' is uttered. (The category of 'Condition' was added when I realized that I had no other way to create the type and variety of powers you see in other systems).

The remaining categories of Power, Range, AOE, and Duration, are all measured numerically and have obvious definitions: Power is how powerful/ effective the ability is, Range and AOE refer to the area or distance the ability can travel, and Duration refers to how long the effect of the ability lasts.


Where I am having trouble is which direction to take the system from here. I can come up with an approved list of Effects and Conditions, in which case yikes please help me come up with a list that could possibly be comprehensive enough to do what I want...

OR I can write up some basic rules which essentially leave these categories completely open, allowing players and GMs to come up with whatever they want, relying on the Power/Range/AOE/Duration fields to provide game balance. This feels like a very scary idea to entertain, and my gut tells me it's not practical though I can't even begin to think of an example that would break the system (or if I should even care since GMs will handle anything they feel to be unfair anyway).

I'm having a lot of difficulty wrapping my mind around this part of the game for some reason. Again, any input is appreciated.

[Nique]

Ugh. You arses, I had to go to reddit for help!

[tacticslion]

First, I hadn't seen this thread before just now.

(Look, I'm busy, okay? ;P)

Second, I can't really tell you what'll break your system without actually... you know... knowing the system.

(If I used to know it... it's... been a while.)

Can you give something of the rules beyond the magic system? If you don't want it in a public place, you can PM me, and I'll look it over and post any suggestions or PM them back to you, at your option.

No guarantee on the speed or accuracy of my interpretations, but I'm definitely interested in helping, if you like!

[Nique]

Well, let's see if I can quickly explain:

EXP is used to purchase (among other things) points towards 6 Stats, all of which come together in 15 combinations to generate character Abilities. 12 of these are the ability scores which define how many d6 PCs roll for success, 3 are hit point pools for Health, Action, and 'Breaks' (aka Muligans).

Kinetics is a separate 7th 'Stat' comprised of the components listed above. EXP is also used to increase skill in this area. PCs spend Action points to execute Kinetic abilities which are as powerful as the PC has built them to be.

[tacticslion]

See, now, that sounds good and cool, but there are a number of elements in those statements that I have no metric to judge by.

For example: how does one acquire EXP? By defeating creatures? Using skills?

What is the relative value of EXP?
- Does every hundred EXP net you <d6?>?
- Does the cost scale according to how high a particular stat is?
How does one arrive at the number of d6s from the base six stats?
- Is your score

EXP is used to purchase (among other things) points towards 6 Stats, all of which come together in 15 combinations to generate character Abilities. 12 of these are the ability scores which define how many d6 PCs roll for success, 3 are hit point pools for Health, Action, and 'Breaks' (aka Muligans).

Kinetics is a separate 7th 'Stat' comprised of the components listed above. EXP is also used to increase skill in this area. PCs spend Action points to execute Kinetic abilities which are as powerful as the PC has built them to be.

Originally Posted by So, I'mma just guess at the six Stats (I really have no idea, but I'm guessing)

STATS?!
- STR
- CON
- DEX
- INT
- WIS
- CHA
- Kinetics

So, fifteen combinations (guesswork):
ABILITY SCORES?!
- Attack [STR/DEX]
- Fortitude [STR/CON]
- Reflex [DEX/INT]
- Will [INT/WIS]
- Block (Armor) [DEX/CHA]
- Combat Maneuver [STR/DEX]
- Combat Defense [STR/CON]
- Knowledge [INT/WIS]
- Movement [DEX/CHA]
- Social [WIS/CHA]
- Understanding [INT/WIS]
- Magic [INT/CHA/Kinetics]
Pools (hit points)
- Health [CON/DEX]
- Action [DEX/INT]
- 'Breaks' (aka Muligans) [INT/CHA]

... and that's pretty much as much as I can guess at.

Which, ultimately, doesn't tell me, or you anything.

I mean, let's just strip away all the fluff, and get down to the basics:

EXP is used to purchase (among other things) points towards 6 Stats, all of which come together in 15 combinations to generate character Abilities. 12 of these are the ability scores which define how many d6 PCs roll for success, 3 are hit point pools for Health, Action, and 'Breaks' (aka Muligans).

Okay, that might look like this:

Originally Posted by Your system? (Still guesswork, but less fluffed, and more basic)

STATS
- A
- B
- C
- D
- E
- F
- Kinetics

Ability Scores
- I <A+B>
- II <A+C>
- III <A+D>
- IV <A+E>
- V <A+F>
- VI <B+C>
- VII <B+D>
- VIII <B+E>
- IX <B+F>
- X <C+D>
- XI <C+E>
- XII <C+F>
Pools (hit points)
- Health <D+E>
- Action <D+F>
- 'Breaks' (aka Muligans) <E+F>

... that looks about right, really.

I'm going to guess that each action I-XII has a number of d6s equal to the sum of the two stats that it derives from, except for the pools, which are probably an amount equal to the sum of the two stats, possibly multiplied by something (like, say, six or three-point-five, to emulate either a maximized d6 or a relatively even distribution).

That actually gives me something of a handle on what I'm working with. Cool.

Looking up, however, I note that nothing uses Kinetics so far.

That means that my chart is incomplete.

Let's look at how this plays out, below.

Kinetics is a separate 7th 'Stat' comprised of the components listed above. EXP is also used to increase skill in this area. PCs spend Action points to execute Kinetic abilities which are as powerful as the PC has built them to be.

And this is where you're having trouble.

Method + Effect + Condition + Power + Range + AOE + Duration = ability

Methods are one of six ways the ability can be delivered; By enhancing a preexisting effect or substance, by transforming something into a substance, by generating a substance from nothing, reducing the effect of a substance, physically manipulating (moving) a substance, or emitting a beam with the property of the substance/effect. (I have a concept for a 7th 'Method' I am currently calling 'Imbued', which would refer to inanimate objects that have been enhanced with Kinetic powers).

Effects are any number of effects, substances, or properties that PCs can manipulate in the manner listed above. This would be simple things like Fire, Ice, Water, or more complicated effects like Gravity and 'timeslow'.

Conditions represents the condition to me met in order for the ability to manifest. This would be things like 'on touch' if a PC wanted to create a trap of some sort, or the ablity might only become active when a 'magic word' is uttered. (The category of 'Condition' was added when I realized that I had no other way to create the type and variety of powers you see in other systems).

The remaining categories of Power, Range, AOE, and Duration, are all measured numerically and have obvious definitions: Power is how powerful/ effective the ability is, Range and AOE refer to the area or distance the ability can travel, and Duration refers to how long the effect of the ability lasts.


Where I am having trouble is which direction to take the system from here. I can come up with an approved list of Effects and Conditions, in which case yikes please help me come up with a list that could possibly be comprehensive enough to do what I want...

OR I can write up some basic rules which essentially leave these categories completely open, allowing players and GMs to come up with whatever they want, relying on the Power/Range/AOE/Duration fields to provide game balance. This feels like a very scary idea to entertain, and my gut tells me it's not practical though I can't even begin to think of an example that would break the system (or if I should even care since GMs will handle anything they feel to be unfair anyway).

Originally Posted by Your system? (Still guesswork, but less fluffed, and more basic)

STATS
- A
- B
- C
- D
- E
- F
- Kinetics
=================
Ability Scores
- I <A+B>
- II <A+C>
- III <A+D>
- IV <A+E>
- V <A+F>
- VI <B+C>
- VII <B+D>
- VIII <B+E>
- IX <B+F>
- X <C+D>
- XI <C+E>
- XII <C+F>
Pools (hit points)
- Health <D+E>
- Action <D+F>
- 'Breaks' (aka Muligans) <E+F>
====================
Kinetics: Method + Effect + Condition + Power + Range + AOE + Duration = ability

Methods
1) Enhance: enhancing a preexisting effect or substance
2) Transform: transforming something into a substance
3) Generate: generating a substance from nothing
4) Reduce: reducing the effect of a substance
5) Manipulate: physically manipulating (moving) a substance,
6) Emission: emitting a beam with the property of the substance/effect
{7) Imbued: refers to inanimate objects that have been enhanced with Kinetic powers}

Effects
Effects are any number of effects, substances, or properties that PCs can manipulate in the manner listed above. This would be simple things like Fire, Ice, Water, or more complicated effects like Gravity and 'timeslow'.

Conditions
Conditions represents the condition to me met in order for the ability to manifest. This would be things like 'on touch' if a PC wanted to create a trap of some sort, or the ability might only become active when a 'magic word' is uttered. (The category of 'Condition' was added when I realized that I had no other way to create the type and variety of powers you see in other systems).

Power: how powerful/effective the ability is
Range: distance the ability can travel
AOE: area the ability can affect
Duration: how long the effect lasts

Here's the problem - I have no idea what metric (aside from d6s) you use for "power", what kind of "ranges" non-Kinetics can produce, how large an "area" is reasonable compared to "non-kinetic uses" and any given duration is going to vary too wildly to guess at a 'balanced' metric to give advice on.

How far can a person reasonably move?
What kind of actions are possible? (I'm guessing this has something to do with the Action Pool.)
- How Many in a Round?
- How Many per Day?

What I lack to give greater advice is a sense of the scale of these elements. What are you envisioning?

As it stands, I see absolutely no reason to put EXP into anything other than Kinetics (I mean, beyond what I need to literally survive, aka "not having a constitution of '0' or its equivalent", presuming that's a thing in this system). Maybe put it in stats DEF, but really, depending on what's possible with Kinetics, I don't see a reason to do that, necessarily.

Thus, I could (hypothetically, lacking any other input) pump just about everything I have into kinetics, utilize exceedingly cheap kinetics for all of my actions. How much does "one kinetics" cost, relative to... anything, really.

Just as an example, I could make a kinetics that (temporarily) gives me extra hit points in one of three areas, another that gives me those in other areas, and a third that give me that in the third area.

Thus I Action: more Action Points! [duration this combat, temporary first, 'cause it's a barrier]
Woo, I've got more action points, now Action: More Health! [duration 1 hour, temporary first, 'cause it's a barrier]
Action: more Action Points!
Woo, I've got more action points, now Action: More Breaks! [duration this combat, temporary first, 'cause it's a barrier]
Action: more Action Points!
Action: more Action Points!
Action: more Action Points!
Action: more Action Points!
Action: more Action Points!
Action: more Action Points!
And now, with all my Action Points, Action: use all the kinetics to transform myself into a 3.5 Max hit dice/hit point Solar with all the class levels (duration: this turn), and all my foes into puppies! I use the Solar's free Wish to make my transformation permanent!

Now, obviously, this makes a lot of presumptions about what's possible... but mostly that's just because I have no frame of reference.

On the other hand, maybe that's not possible for some reason. Fair enough, I pump everything I have into the Action-granting Stats. I get all the actions in a turn! Woo! (I have no idea how this would sort itself out, but in most games having a huge action economy advantage outweighs a personal power advantage by a fair margin most of the time.)

But those are only two ways of 'breaking' the game off the top of my head.

In general, I'd suggest creating a defined list of conditions, but also leaving it open to generating more.

In other words, create a solid list that you price, then explain how to price things to generate larger lists, or more complete lists.

Here's a starting point for a list of conditions, as is this*, and this comprehensively covers 5E type stuff.

The major problem that anyone other than you (as far as I know) has in translating these conditions (many of which are overlaps or similar) into your own game system is that the scope of them is balanced around that particular system.

Still, they can be used as a basis. I might recommend setting up a few severity charts:
- shaken ->frightened
- sickened ->nauseated
- friendly ->helpful
- dazed -> stunned
- expeditious retreat->haste->time stop
etc.

After you set up a list of "official" conditions, show how to make a few "unofficial" ones (with the expectation that your "unofficial" conditions will be considered "official" by some groups and not by others), and thus show the hows and whys of the design decisions.

This allows customization and variance, but also shows the limits of what's viable.

Hope that helps! Also, if you're willing, I'd love to know more. It could be a very interesting system, I just don't know how it functions internally.

* Here (page 39), here, and here are more resources and discussions about those, in case that link is frowned upon for some reason - please adjust accordingly, Mods.

[Nique]

I should probably let you look at the whole guide file I've written. I'm gonna email the attached pdf if that's cool with you? Should clear up quite a bit of your questions and give us a better foundation to brainstorm solutions.

Sorry for slow response time btw. We just moved and have been spending all of our free time setting up our new place.

[PhoenixFlame]

Given my experience creating combos from existing abilities in Exalted, GURPs, Double-Cross and similar, I'll give my two cents.

From what I can see... 'Method' appears to be purely fluff-related, and you can leave this up to the player as to how their character achieves their ability.

Given this, 'effects' are also fluff related. If I want to create a damage-enhancing ability, it doesn't matter if I sheathe my sword in fire or manipulate gravity to alter the mass of my weapon after it achieves momentum. Statistically, both powers do the same thing, they enhance damage. You can probably leave this to the player's imagination as well.

'Condition' should be split among what it means. KISS here, even if it will result in multiple identifiers. Timing: Standard Action / Range: Melee / Limit: Unarmed is typically better than 'On touch' as it explains what the attack roll is using, what action it will take, and where it can be used. This is important when you have kinetic powers, because 'touch' becomes very nebulous. What if you can touch something 15 feet away, but the power requires skin contact as its method? One of the main problems with exalted is it is an exception-based system, and many of the powers make 'exceptions' to existing rules, requiring the player or GM to constantly re-read what the exceptions are for a certain ability instead of just reading the ability and applying it by the usual steps.

Range and AoE are self-explainatory, and can really be rolled into the conditions set. I'd probably save the word 'Effect' for 'Power', as not all abilities are going to have their 'Power' stat directly relate to attack power.

I'm going to be pretty controversial here and tell you that for everyone's sanity, drop duration from powers, or sharply limit it. In almost all 'construction' based RPG I've played, 'scene-long' duration powers are the #1 balance destroying effects in their respective games, because it's so very difficult to put a value on duration. You tend to get the effect where characters 'spool', spending several actions 'powering up' like they're in a DBZ episode, and then rolling over the enemy. If their power is 'committed' to the duration-based effect, it limits their other options, as their abilities are locked in a relatively boring dice bonus or power bonus, or what have you, that costs them nothing further to maintain. The enemy either achieves their own bonus and the battle plays out as a boring slugfest with no other powers used, or they roll over and die, overcome by the cost-economy of having a strong buff you no longer pay for.

Examples: CoDzilla in DnD 3.5, Infinate [Ability] Mastery in Exalted (To the point it ruined the entire 2nd edition), Telekinetic Shield in FFG's Warhammer 40k RPGs, Boring persisting "Accuracy bonus" techniques in Anima: Beyond Fantasy, Sustaining Focuses in Shadowrun 4th Edition (Adepts may aswell not exist), the Sense force discipline in Star Wars: Edge of the Empire, and so on and so forth. All of these are statistically flat out superior to using your resources for instant effects if the conflict continues for more than one exchange.

Interestingly, Double Cross doesn't do this. Sure, there are some scenelong abilities that apply bonuses, but they're very weak and scale poorly. If you want to hurt someone who matters, you have to use an instant effect, yet there isn't anything stopping you from just using it continuously aside from running your encroachment rate into the stratosphere and dying. Yet it puts a time limit on your 'super mode', where you have to go all in with the intent to win, and not simply to outlast your opponent under a grinding hail of dice. Better to have a 'You may maintain Y for cost X as an incidental action' clause than 'Pay X and become Y for unspecified time'.

Aside from that, try to tie your powers into your core system. "Grants Flight, and increases movement by X" is better than "Achieve fly speed at a rate of XYZ", because in DnD your fly speed is going to be faster than your walking speed one way or another, and there's no reason to ever walk when you can fly at any reasonable maneuverability. Better to tie it to movement and refer to the fact that flight can ignore certain terrain types. Boost a 'toughness' stat instead of adding an untyped damage reduction, so on and so forth. Make the players know and use your basic rules even while they're using the advanced ones.

[Nique]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlame

From what I can see... 'Method' appears to be purely fluff-related, and you can leave this up to the player as to how their character achieves their ability.

No, but also possibly yes in some cases. 'Transformation' for example, would be a non-damage dealing 'Method'.

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlame

Given this, 'effects' are also fluff related. If I want to create a damage-enhancing ability, it doesn't matter if I sheathe my sword in fire or manipulate gravity to alter the mass of my weapon after it achieves momentum. Statistically, both powers do the same thing, they enhance damage. You can probably leave this to the player's imagination as well.

Again, not exactly, but also 'yes' in a lot of cases, such as in the example you provided.

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlame

'Condition' should be split among what it means. KISS here, even if it will result in multiple identifiers. Timing: Standard Action / Range: Melee / Limit: Unarmed is typically better than 'On touch' as it explains what the attack roll is using, what action it will take, and where it can be used. This is important when you have kinetic powers, because 'touch' becomes very nebulous. What if you can touch something 15 feet away, but the power requires skin contact as its method? One of the main problems with exalted is it is an exception-based system, and many of the powers make 'exceptions' to existing rules, requiring the player or GM to constantly re-read what the exceptions are for a certain ability instead of just reading the ability and applying it by the usual steps.

If I'm reading this right, your suggestion is to split up 'Condition' into another series of fields:

Timing: The time it takes to execute the skill (possibly as a kind of power up or cost reducing mechanic)

Limit (or, alternatively, target?): Who/ what can be affected? Possibly an effect category like fire, earth, water, people, animals, etc.

Range is, at this point, merely a numeric factor (how many spaces away you are on a battle grid, for example) as opposed to more ambiguous terms like 'touch' 'arcane connections' and so forth. What I meant by 'on-touch' was more of a triggering mechanism if you wanted to set a booby trap that was kinetics based, or other such creative uses. Unless you are referring to a wholly separate type of range under 'condition' categories, in which case I could use a little more clarification.

I'd probably save the word 'Effect' for 'Power', as not all abilities are going to have their 'Power' stat directly relate to attack power.

Good suggestion. Actually, I'm going to transplant 'Effect' for 'Power' as suggested, and change 'Effect' to 'Element' or something else with more flair.

I'm going to be pretty controversial here and tell you that for everyone's sanity, drop duration from powers, or sharply limit it. In almost all 'construction' based RPG I've played, 'scene-long' duration powers are the #1 balance destroying effects in their respective games, because it's so very difficult to put a value on duration. You tend to get the effect where characters 'spool', spending several actions 'powering up' like they're in a DBZ episode, and then rolling over the enemy. If their power is 'committed' to the duration-based effect, it limits their other options, as their abilities are locked in a relatively boring dice bonus or power bonus, or what have you, that costs them nothing further to maintain. The enemy either achieves their own bonus and the battle plays out as a boring slugfest with no other powers used, or they roll over and die, overcome by the cost-economy of having a strong buff you no longer pay for.

Point taken. How would you feel about a limited payoff with each additional turn that power remains in effect? Like, pay 1:1 for the first additional turn, 2:1 for the next, 3:1, and so on?

Aside from that, try to tie your powers into your core system. "Grants Flight, and increases movement by X" is better than "Achieve fly speed at a rate of XYZ", because in DnD your fly speed is going to be faster than your walking speed one way or another, and there's no reason to ever walk when you can fly at any reasonable maneuverability. Better to tie it to movement and refer to the fact that flight can ignore certain terrain types. Boost a 'toughness' stat instead of adding an untyped damage reduction, so on and so forth. Make the players know and use your basic rules even while they're using the advanced ones.

I'm going to have to come back to this one. There are a couple of features of how Kinetic damage is dealt which tie it into how a character can defend against it, but I'm not sure it's appropriately 'tied in' to the rest of the game otherwise.

[tacticslion]

Sorry for the delay; it will be longer. Real life is... heavy, at present, in good and bad ways, killing my focus. I'll try to help and look when I can. Thanks for your patience, and apologies, again.

Also, it's fine if you send it to me.

[PhoenixFlame]

Originally Posted by Nique

Point taken. How would you feel about a limited payoff with each additional turn that power remains in effect? Like, pay 1:1 for the first additional turn, 2:1 for the next, 3:1, and so on?

1:1 should be fine. There's no real impetus to penalize players for maintaining, but you shouldn't reward them for drawing things out while riding constant-duration abilities.

If you want to get all micromanagement with 'limited-but-powerful' buff type spells, you could give them a 'Safe duration' where the cost stays the same and then starts to scale sharply if you exceed it, but I don't feel this is very necessary or adds much to the game unless you feel that 'super-mode' powers are thematically required.

Also do yourself a favor and make unique rules for adversary characters. This not only makes the GM's job easier in setup, removes the bookkeeping to track stats for his adversaries behind the scenes, but generally removes the clunkiness of having to juggle 5-6 characters all using the same depth of rules the players are using as one human being. It has the side-effect of mechanically discouraging PVP as well, and regardless of if you agree or not (Some simulationists won't on principal, I know, I used to be one), many experienced GMs will tend to handwave many complicated systems in games with dense power rulesets in the interest of streamlining for their audience, so that combat doesn't take hours.

For example, I'm pretty sure at some point every DnD GM will eyeball derived attributes for a random encounter that needs to be re-scaled, as they tend to be uniform with CR, and never give the monster base attributes unless it became relevant and only then made them up on the fly. The players have no way of knowing what you're doing, and as long as you give them a challenge they won't care either.